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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Solent Area
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    834

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    OK, it was nasty and vindictive but, national pride and a fantastic propaganda opportunity apart, were the Germans wrong in law? He was a civilian and he attacked an enemy vessel, after all.
    Ramming them is self defence in my book.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    103

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Doesn't follow. Did either have time to take avoiding action or was it just good luck that there was no collision. The big question is "What the hell was a submarine playing at, lurking at periscope depth on a busy shipping route?" Here is what the ferry has been up to for the past couple of days:



    As you'll see, its track is predictable within a band about a mile wide. Anyone waiting invisibly within that band is just asking for trouble.
    That last paragraph is just a stupid comment. It also doesn't explain your comment about lookut in the RN.
    Last edited by East Cardinal; 24-01-19 at 14:22.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Argyll
    Posts
    6,091

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Surely the sub was probably heading North or south so crossing the ferry route, if he could not see the ferry and monitor its position adjusting his speed accordingly there must be something seriously wrong. Some one spotted his periscope and told the ferry captain who logged it. There is no suggestion of any danger?
    A few years back on passage from Carrick to Gigha on a really sunny but cold morning we encountered a thick layer of mist, could see about 5 boat lengths but it is hard to judge, getting nervous as we were approaching the Larne Cairnryan ferry route, the boat suddenly lifted about 6 feet and slapped down again and there was the roar of the engines of the HSS, both seemed to happen simultaneously indicating he had been very close, seemed to be going flat out past us but we never saw him. I more or less convinced myself that the layer of mist was thin enough that the top of our mast was visible above the mist or he would not have passed so fast and close, alternatively he just never knew we were there.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    691

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post

    ..."What the hell was a submarine playing at, lurking at periscope depth on a busy shipping route?"...
    I thought that's what submarines do?

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kingdom of Fife
    Posts
    6,016

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    MRDA: Mandy Rice-Davies applies. Though I suspect that in a collision between a Stena ferry and a submarine, the submarine would have the rougher time.
    That all depends, in this case the ferry would have been hit by the fin which is toughened for breaking through polar ice, might make a chunky hole in a ferry which could be problematic. On the other hand the submarines watertight integrity would not be affected though quite a bit of repair work would be in order.
    Peter

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    18,743

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by East Cardinal View Post
    That last paragraph is just a stupid comment. It also doesn't explain your comment about lookut in the RN.
    A stupid comment? You honestly think it is sensible to lurk in a near-invisible boat in the middle of a busy shipping area, and worse than that in the middle of a track through that area used by large vessels many times per day.

    Even if the crew didn't have the sense to check the charts, they should have been able to detect the ferry miles away and keep well clear. Failure to do so is a clear breach of IRPCS.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    18,743

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    Surely the sub was probably heading North or south so crossing the ferry route, if he could not see the ferry and monitor its position adjusting his speed accordingly there must be something seriously wrong. Some one spotted his periscope and told the ferry captain who logged it. There is no suggestion of any danger?
    The MAIB investigation suggests that they are taking it rather more seriously that "Ooooh, a periscope". Quite apart from that, had the ferry made a late course change - as it was perfectly entitled to do - that safe distance could easily have vanished. It would be interesting to know how many of those - not you - defending the sardines would also defend someone who crossed the North Channel at night in an unlit small yacht and had a near miss with a ferry.

    Quote Originally Posted by penberth3 View Post
    I thought that's what submarines do?
    I think they spend most of their time skulking in deep water, ready to commit genocide for the Queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxi77 View Post
    That all depends, in this case the ferry would have been hit by the fin which is toughened for breaking through polar ice, might make a chunky hole in a ferry which could be problematic. On the other hand the submarines watertight integrity would not be affected though quite a bit of repair work would be in order.
    True, but the fin isn't that big, is it, and those ferries are quite deep.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fortrose
    Posts
    1,382

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    "A Submarine at periscope depth will not close to within 1500yds of an FV without her specific consent." I'm guessing that's the same for a ferry?
    Seems fairly obvious that something's gone awry if the ferry got a scare.
    A cover up by denial of the distances, a reprimand or a new career selling ice cream near Helensburgh for 'an' Officer? What's your call JumbleD?
    Folkboat 'Stakkr' - Inverness - http://islandrov.wix.com/island-rov-web

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,735

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    The big question is "What the hell was a submarine playing at, lurking at periscope depth on a busy shipping route?"
    JD
    What evidence do you have that the sub was "lurking" and not making way on a N/S passage?
    Secondly, has anyone said how close the two vessels came? Was the periscope sighted very close by or say a mile away? (Can one see a periscope a mile away??)

    Either you have some more facts than have been disclosed in this thread, or you are perhaps letting your prejudices run away with you a bit?

    Peter

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    103

    Default Re: RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    A stupid comment? You honestly think it is sensible to lurk in a near-invisible boat in the middle of a busy shipping area, and worse than that in the middle of a track through that area used by large vessels many times per day.

    Even if the crew didn't have the sense to check the charts, they should have been able to detect the ferry miles away and keep well clear. Failure to do so is a clear breach of IRPCS.
    You obviously have some axe to grind on this topic. Without the report I expect we cannot know exactly the circumstances.
    But IRCPS does not give ferries right of way because they use the same routing on each trip.

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