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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
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    580

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    On a small boat they could be bad for helmsman's night vision, especially if they reflect off a white deck
    My steaming light completely destroys my night vision if sail+motor, and rather disturbs it even if no sail set. On occasions in crab pot infested waters I had to just use my side and stern nav lights, before I changed wiring so I could use masthead "anchor" light with nav side lights (Stern light suppressed).

    In the Solent yacht lights must be a nightmare for shipping, but then again my infrequent transits of the area seemed a chaotic nightmare for yachts as well.
    A boat is for going places

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Home UK Midlands / Boat Croatia
    Posts
    18,136

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by prv View Post
    Your post didn't say anything about being at anchor - looked like you were saying that transmitting AIS while underway meant you could crack open the booze and stop keeping a lookout

    Pete
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladybirdgaffcutter View Post
    It sure did
    Not a snowball's chance in a hot place did it look like I inferred anything about being underway.

    I said "Or flip on that AIS transceiver switch, crack open a bottle ..... and relax".

    Now, if I was underway that AIS would already be switched on, of course, so "flipping it on" would be completely meaningless .... and "relaxing" strongly suggests that one is not on vigilant watch which, of course, would honly hever 'appen when one was hat hanchor.

    With regards to "cracking open a bottle" ..... well I admit that on board the Good Ship Ajay that happens virtually 24/7 so there's absolutely nothing to be read into that about our state of passage, either way.

    Richard

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NE Coast
    Posts
    1,563

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Surely if you do not show the correct masthead light/navigation lights at night and IF you had an accident under the law then you will be breaking the IRPCS rules and can be help responsible no matter what you say
    to the judge whether its your fault or not !
    Archivist for the Colvic Watson Owners Group

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    18,758

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Caer Urfa View Post
    Surely if you do not show the correct masthead light/navigation lights at night and IF you had an accident under the law then you will be breaking the IRPCS rules and can be help responsible no matter what you say
    to the judge whether its your fault or not !
    I'm not sure how you can be held responsible if it's not your fault. But that aside, I think the issue here is that there is no single solution. We have some carefully selected pictures showing mastheads lined up with the shore from the bridge of a small ship; I could go out for a day and take a similar selection of pictures showing deck level lights lined up with shore lights from the cockpit of my yacht. A masthead anchor light may be a bad plan for everybody anchoring off the end of a runway and next to a control tower, but can be great on the west coast to let other boats see you at a distance or over an island.

    Maybe we could just exercise judgement about which lights to use when, or is that too hard?
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
    Posts
    580

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Or flip on that AIS transceiver switch, crack open a bottle ..... and relax. Richard
    I understand that some big boats turn of class B AIS reception to reduce clutter - they shouldn't but I have been informed that they do. Unless things change leisure boats will not have class A due to cost, power requirements etc. Class A transponder is 1500 but Class B transponder is still 500. Class A transmit requirements can also bump class B data slot, leaving class B as incorrect/invisible until next slot
    A boat is for going places

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Southminster, essex
    Posts
    8,900

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    Sigh.... You are meant to use a bit of imagination here.... bit hard taking photos to illustrate my point in the dark... esp if you can't see the lights...

    If any of the yachts in those photos ( with one exception ) was showing just a tri they would be invisible.... if they were showing lights on the pulpit or taffrail the light would be showing against a backdrop of black.... and would be easily spotted.

    Also... on these particular arrivals into this particular port we are approaching a major city... Melbourne, Straya, Jewel in Queen Victoria's Crown, richest city in the Empire, etc.... so lots of tall buildings , lots of lights...

    Now, contrary to popular belief the watch - in clear vis - does not have their noses stuck in the ECDIS... they are actually looking out the windows...
    So consider the photo top left and lets imagine that these yachts are on my starboard bow... maybe 2 points...lets assume the yacht on the right - which as you point out is motoring - is actually sailing and showing a trilight. Got to do a little bit of 'pretends' here...
    Attachment 75830
    So we see a red light... which is on the boat on the left which in this scenario is showing lights at deck level... steady bearing....
    A quick look at radar and AIS.... sure enough there is indeed something there ( not all yachts run AIS...not all yachts show up on radar) ... maybe a mile off...so we haul around to starboard to pass close astern of her..... can't give her a mile or anything fancy... maybe 100 metres or even less.... as we are in pilotage waters and are shaping up for the Port Melbourne Channel.... have to cut it pretty fine...

    This isn't just me making stuff up... my last day(?) job of 18 years involved arriving in that port in the dark for 6 months of the year and also - indeed quite often - sailing in the dark as well. It only took me a few days of daylight arrivals and departures to get those shots....

    Anyway... do as you please... matters not to me....

    You know... on a big ship you don't even feel the bump...

    'Hey Captain, do you want a trilight and a windex and stuff?'

    Just kidding... we had the anchor jammed in the hawse... sometimes happens when you are working to windward at 18 knots into a bit of a Bass Strait gale...
    Attachment 75829
    All that blather is really just trying to make your job look a bit difficult- Did you get the raise in pay ?? Or did the boss say " yeah! we will think about it & let you know"
    Seriously though, it is all simple col regs & the job of a ships captain to steer the ship around the other vessels. That is why you go through such intensive training before they let you out( I hope!!)
    You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.
    Those that made the rules clearly thought about it & they thought that the 2 options were Ok.( well 3 actually)
    If they felt that one system should be used in preference to the other in certain situations, would it not be written into the IRPCS etc?
    It is all down to the fact that my wife does not understand me !!

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Fareham
    Posts
    6,506

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.
    I don't think there is a clear cut advantage to prove for one light configuration in all circumstances. But I have heard the same request for yachts to use deck level lights in preference to the masthead light from the master of another large vessel that frequently operates close to shore in crowded waters. So I tend to believe them.
    ۞

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    8,071

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    All that blather is really just trying to make your job look a bit difficult- Did you get the raise in pay ?? Or did the boss say " yeah! we will think about it & let you know"
    Seriously though, it is all simple col regs & the job of a ships captain to steer the ship around the other vessels. That is why you go through such intensive training before they let you out( I hope!!)
    You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.
    Those that made the rules clearly thought about it & they thought that the 2 options were Ok.( well 3 actually)
    If they felt that one system should be used in preference to the other in certain situations, would it not be written into the IRPCS etc?
    You have just proved two things. One is that you don’t have a clue about how the IMO goes about making regulations.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    8,220

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    Quote Originally Posted by DJE View Post
    .............. I have heard the same request for yachts to use deck level lights in preference to the masthead light from the master of another large vessel that frequently operates close to shore in crowded waters. So I tend to believe them.


    Yes, it has also been repeated, several times, over the years in the yachting press. Frank Holden's posts are a valuable reminder for us.

    If it this is not thought useful, I can only put it down to a strain of corporate madness that seems to afflict the forum now and again.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    35,597

    Default Re: Lights while sailing at night

    The flip side is that the deck level lights are hidden from the bridge of a large ship by the bow, when the masthead lights are not.
    It's a balance between being seen a long way away against shore lights, vs being seen close up under the bow.
    Also a masthead light is closer to eye level for a typical ferry.
    In reality, the differences are often overstated, a 40ft mast height is a small difference in angle when another vessel is spotting you a few miles off. But where things threaten to become a contact sport, the watch on the ship has apparently often seen the yacht well in advance, but it's altered course in an unexpected way subsequently.

    There is also the point that to another smallish vessel, your masthead light will change angle vertically as you close, making it obvious that distance is reducing. A single light close to eye-level can be very deceptive.
    In my experience, there is more smaller traffic to avoid than big ships which we see easily.

    I don't believe there are a lot of incidents where the real key issue is the height of a yacht's lights.

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