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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Keswick, Cumbria
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Anyone done this or have any thoughts on it? I'm think ahead really for when I take my westerly longbow on an atlantic circuit.

    I have a storm jib & trysail for her, and would need an inner forestay for that anyway. It seems a good idea, and to add a staysail to the mix.

    Any idea of the cost of getting the forestay added, and what is involved ?

    While on this train of thought I'm attracted to the idea of a mizzen staysail as well but perhaps thats impractical on a boat that's only 32 ft loa incl bowsprit??

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    The Known Universe
    Posts
    593

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve yates View Post
    Anyone done this or have any thoughts on it? I'm think ahead really for when I take my westerly longbow on an atlantic circuit.

    I have a storm jib & trysail for her, and would need an inner forestay for that anyway. It seems a good idea, and to add a staysail to the mix.

    Any idea of the cost of getting the forestay added, and what is involved ?

    While on this train of thought I'm attracted to the idea of a mizzen staysail as well but perhaps thats impractical on a boat that's only 32 ft loa incl bowsprit??
    Hi some nice info on this thread still recent and some good people with good info
    I also have a ketch with a inner fore-stay but still learning this set up
    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...77-Cutter-rigs
    Flying birds have no master

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Grenoble
    Posts
    27,956

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingGoose View Post
    Hi some nice info on this thread still recent and some good people with good info
    I also have a ketch with a inner fore-stay but still learning this set up
    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...77-Cutter-rigs

    There have been many threads on converting sloops to cutters, your Ketch is little different other than the sail balance issues. The principal problems you will have is finding somewhere below decks that allow you to secure the deck fitting, a good crossbeam is usual. Then do you wand a true cutter rig with the stay running parallel to the forestay about 40% down from the masthead and then to consider how to support it and stop the mast from pumping? Or will you make do with a Solent rig with a 2nd inner forestay close to the main forestay, perhaps on a Hifield lever.
    Silk Purse and sows ear spring to mind.

    Look at how you can manager the existing sail plan and tactics for heavy weather before trying to change the boat.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Keswick, Cumbria
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    I don't know much about heavy weather, (or anything else come to that) but I do know that halfway across an ocean is too late to start thinking about changes to the rig. I also know that a furling genoa is not the only headsail option I would want if caught in heavy weather.
    I have 2 reefs in the main, I know I want a third, it just makes sense. I know I want a second forestay, I want the ability to fly a storm jib, and like the idea of a staysail. I don't like the lack of forward visibility when the big genoa is out, (and it is big!)

    Given that both a solent rig and a true cutter rig will require something solid under deck for fixings, is there any particular advantages of one over the other?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    35,797

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve yates View Post
    I don't know much about heavy weather, (or anything else come to that) but I do know that halfway across an ocean is too late to start thinking about changes to the rig. I also know that a furling genoa is not the only headsail option I would want if caught in heavy weather.
    I have 2 reefs in the main, I know I want a third, it just makes sense. I know I want a second forestay, I want the ability to fly a storm jib, and like the idea of a staysail. I don't like the lack of forward visibility when the big genoa is out, (and it is big!)

    Given that both a solent rig and a true cutter rig will require something solid under deck for fixings, is there any particular advantages of one over the other?
    Firstly I'd suggest checking the boat out in some weather before heading off across an ocean.
    Secondly, as I said in the other thread, you've got to consider the rig design as a whole, not just add a stay here and there.
    Controlling mast bend is crucial, which makes adding a solent stay high up where it works against the backstay and cap shrouds far simpler than adding it 2/3 up where you need runners or something to react against it.
    Then you need to consider the balance of the rig, if you already have storm jib and trysail, is it not likely these are sized to balance reasonably set on the rig the boat was built with?

    The large size of the genoa is maybe an argument for some sort of No2 or working jib?

    I've found with a couple of boats, it's a dilemma between sorting the boat out at the beginning and getting to know the boat before making changes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Caribbean
    Posts
    2,225

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    We have a Solent rig on our ketch. We added the second inner forestay behind the existing forestay. Our boat is 44ft over the deck. Rather than add the second forestay such that the top connection is close the the existing forestay top connection we opted to fit the second forestay two feet back from the existing forestay and parallel to it. This gives our top connection 6ft down from the mast head. We opted for running backstays.
    We fly a 130 percent genoa on the main furler and a working jib on the inner furler. The runners are not a problem as their attachment point is high enough on the mast that once we have reefed the mainsail they dont foul the mainsail. If we are beating to weather we leave them both connected with a reefed main and working jib. Its great to bot need to go on the deck in rising wind and sea

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
    Posts
    596

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    I have removable forestay to run Solent Rig on my Westerly Pentland. Large plate under deck somewhere between anchor cleat and front of cabin. I wouldn't run a storm sail on it as not taut enough or strong enough at deck or mast fitting for storm condition, but have and would happily use the existing baby stay from cross tree to deck at front of cabin and have rigged it to take such. The deck at bottom of this existing stay is fairly stiff area due to fold in material, so if your longbow does not have baby stay, it might be quite practical to add.

    I have three lots reefing cringles in my mainsail as roller furling droops the boom and might fail. With that, as my mainsail is new and fairly heavy, I haven't bothered with trysail as not planning ocean work. For what I use her for the mizzen gives enough stability if I drop the main. (I do have trysail on our other boat with lighter mainsail as she rolls like a pig with no canvas up).

    I run a mizzen staysail flying free though it adds very little as mizzen mast fairly short (tack at main mast foot and clew at mainsail boomend), so I really did it just to play with canvas. However if on ocean voyage and main mast fails it might still be a godsend rigged with jib sheets instead. I believe some folk used to run mizzen spinakers or cruising chute on the westerly ketches though that much flapping above the helm might be an issue. I would also want the mizzen up and taut amidships to help stay the mizzen mast or add a further running backstay.

    I know some would say no one except rigger and designers with 60 years experience of ocean design can change rig, but you will find a lot of what you are thinking about has been done on westerlies already
    A boat is for going places

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Chichester
    Posts
    792

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    I fitted a 'Solent' stay to my Seal28 sloop. The stay comes down from about a metre below the top of the mast to an eyeplate set at the rear of the anchor well using a Highfield lever. I found that the number one jib is best on the main forestay because the boat benefits from having the area further forward in winds up to F5-6. The number two gets set on the Solent stay, but note that you might need another set of sheet leads - maybe on the coach roof. It might also get complicated with the sheets in between the main and lower shrouds. I have tried sailing with both number one and two jibs set but didn't notice any improvement in speed over just number one. I have since found out that my mast fitting is considered to be too far down the mast (6% of mast height maximum) and that I should really fit running backstays. I haven't noticed any excessive bending, but then I have only tried it in winds up to 30 knots or so.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
    Posts
    596

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by neil_s View Post
    I fitted a 'Solent' stay to my Seal28 sloop. The stay comes down from about a metre below the top of the mast to an eyeplate set at the rear of the anchor well using a Highfield lever. .
    +1 I was just going to add to my post that inner stay needs to be less than a metre below mast head and better still about 500mm to 600mm or it will bend the mast too much unless you also add running stays.

    My stay sail made no difference to windward but helped running down wind
    Last edited by oldmanofthehills; 15-04-19 at 15:21.
    A boat is for going places

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    35,797

    Default Re: Thinking ahead, adding an inner forestay to a ketch rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmanofthehills View Post
    +1 I was just going to add to my post that inner stay needs to be less than a metre below mast head and better still about 500mm to 600mm or it will bend the mast too much unless you also add running stays.

    My stay sail made no difference to windward but helped running down wind
    A metre is a lot, as a fraction of a 10metre mast.
    But a lot of older boats had masts on the heavy side so might be strong enough.
    There is still going to be a weakness introduced for the forestay fixing though.

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