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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    3

    Default Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    First post, but a long time lurker on the forum.

    After thrashing around the Carrick Roads and Falmouth Bay in a Graduate dinghy with my son for the last year, entering our first race (and not coming last despite turtling), loosing our rigging and calling out the RNLI (yes, we have a handheld VHF especially when the waters are deserted in February), realising why it might have been better to put a reef in before heading out, my crewmate is heading off to warmer waters as a young marine engineer. The Grad isn't the same single-handed, and I can't persuade the wife aboard, she says it's not a proper boat as proper boats don't fall over (sigh) and have engines for when the wind disappears (apparently a paddle doesn't count). Whilst we also have a Laser that I can continue to hooligan around in, I'd like to get her more involved rather than leaving her at home alone, particularly now our son is about to leave home. She has been out on different friends yachts and enjoyed herself, possibly with the exception of the Leisure 17 which she found a bit cramped and 'rolely'.

    So after months of consideration we are close to making an offer on our first 'proper boat', most likely to be a 23ft Pegasus 700. Why this boat? It is really clean and tidy, currently on the hard at the yard where we keep our dinghies so we've seen it around and it has a mooring available in this highly sought after area. We had a good look and poke around the hull before it was recently antifouled and nothing stood out, other than how clean/smooth it was compared to most other boats in the yard. It has perfectly serviceable rigging and sails and a very clean and smoothly running Yamaha 5hp outboard (the current owner never left the engine in the water when not in use). Instrument wise, it only has a compass, not even a VHF, so not much potential for problem there, tho I would definitely add a depth sounder given how shallow it gets around here at low tide and a new VHF despite already having a good handheld one.

    We have plenty of sailing friends, one of which has built boats as well as previously running a small yacht charter business. He is going to cast his more experienced eye over the boat but I would still welcome general feedback from yourselves.

    The previous owners are retiring from boating, hence the sale and at 3K it's about 50% of our 'comfortable' budget so leaves plenty in reserve. In comparison to other examples of the same boat currently for sale elsewhere in the country (at higher prices + transport) it appears to be equally as good (visually), and compared with other local boats in this price range that we have looked at, again, it seems to be a good choice. Given the concensus that boats are bottomless pits, nothing goes to plan and 'stuff' happens, at least from a maintentance/running cost pov, I'm more than compentent to strip and reubild engines as well as working with wood, metal, electronics and fibreglass and given it's apparant condition, it doesn't look like it needs anything more than a new wood backing for the auxillary engine mount to be made up and a fresh coat of varnish on the table for the first year, at least until the first thing breaks!

    How do we intend to use it? For the first year whilst getting to grips with something larger than the Grad, we will be just pottering up and down around the Carrick Roads, out into the bay and around the local coastline, in fair conditions. We don't have ambitions to cross the channel or the like and it's not a lifetime purchase.


    So, questions....

    1) Is there anything structural or other known-fault/issue/concern with this boat design that we should look out for?

    2) Is there any overwhelming reason why this boat would not be suitable?

    3) If we insist on a sea-trial, whats the etiquette on paying to get the boat into, and potentially out, of the water?

    4) What paperwork is involved with the transfer of ownership?



    Postive and the inevitable doom-gloomer feedback eagerly awaited!

    Chris

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    286

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Hi Chris,

    it sounds like you have thought this all through pretty well, good luck on taking the step to proper sailing! It is not all that common in the UK to ask for a sea trial, and unless the current owner is planning to put her back in anyway I suspect that the cost would be rather a large proportion of the sale price. Far more common is a professional survey, though again at this scale you might consider going without, especially if you have seen the engine working and have had a chance to prod around.

    Common issues with all boats of a certain age include: spongy decks (surreptitious bouncing will reveal this), leaky anything (windows, chainplates, deck hardware etc. Look for lifting of the deck around chainplates or discolouration of joinery/headlining below), worn out hardware (winches, clutches, turning blocks). My brief online research doesn't throw up any particular concerns with this boat.

    In addition to the sale price have you worked out a budget for ongoing costs?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Fareham
    Posts
    6,542

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Nearly bought a Pegasus as our first cruiser many years ago. We decided to keep the Wayfarer and boom tent for a bit longer in the end. But it seemed like a very good boat. In a club with drying moorings and a maximum 23ft length limit it struck me as one of the best boats in the fleet for sailing performance with reasonable accommodation. Sounds like you've found a good example at a good price. Go for it - best of luck.
    ۞

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    In the far North
    Posts
    9,689

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-s View Post
    First post, but a long time lurker on the forum.

    After thrashing around the Carrick Roads and Falmouth Bay in a Graduate dinghy with my son for the last year, entering our first race (and not coming last despite turtling), loosing our rigging and calling out the RNLI (yes, we have a handheld VHF especially when the waters are deserted in February), realising why it might have been better to put a reef in before heading out, my crewmate is heading off to warmer waters as a young marine engineer. The Grad isn't the same single-handed, and I can't persuade the wife aboard, she says it's not a proper boat as proper boats don't fall over (sigh) and have engines for when the wind disappears (apparently a paddle doesn't count). Whilst we also have a Laser that I can continue to hooligan around in, I'd like to get her more involved rather than leaving her at home alone, particularly now our son is about to leave home. She has been out on different friends yachts and enjoyed herself, possibly with the exception of the Leisure 17 which she found a bit cramped and 'rolely'.

    So after months of consideration we are close to making an offer on our first 'proper boat', most likely to be a 23ft Pegasus 700. Why this boat? It is really clean and tidy, currently on the hard at the yard where we keep our dinghies so we've seen it around and it has a mooring available in this highly sought after area. We had a good look and poke around the hull before it was recently antifouled and nothing stood out, other than how clean/smooth it was compared to most other boats in the yard. It has perfectly serviceable rigging and sails and a very clean and smoothly running Yamaha 5hp outboard (the current owner never left the engine in the water when not in use). Instrument wise, it only has a compass, not even a VHF, so not much potential for problem there, tho I would definitely add a depth sounder given how shallow it gets around here at low tide and a new VHF despite already having a good handheld one.

    We have plenty of sailing friends, one of which has built boats as well as previously running a small yacht charter business. He is going to cast his more experienced eye over the boat but I would still welcome general feedback from yourselves.

    The previous owners are retiring from boating, hence the sale and at 3K it's about 50% of our 'comfortable' budget so leaves plenty in reserve. In comparison to other examples of the same boat currently for sale elsewhere in the country (at higher prices + transport) it appears to be equally as good (visually), and compared with other local boats in this price range that we have looked at, again, it seems to be a good choice. Given the concensus that boats are bottomless pits, nothing goes to plan and 'stuff' happens, at least from a maintentance/running cost pov, I'm more than compentent to strip and reubild engines as well as working with wood, metal, electronics and fibreglass and given it's apparant condition, it doesn't look like it needs anything more than a new wood backing for the auxillary engine mount to be made up and a fresh coat of varnish on the table for the first year, at least until the first thing breaks!

    How do we intend to use it? For the first year whilst getting to grips with something larger than the Grad, we will be just pottering up and down around the Carrick Roads, out into the bay and around the local coastline, in fair conditions. We don't have ambitions to cross the channel or the like and it's not a lifetime purchase.


    So, questions....

    1) Is there anything structural or other known-fault/issue/concern with this boat design that we should look out for?

    2) Is there any overwhelming reason why this boat would not be suitable?

    3) If we insist on a sea-trial, whats the etiquette on paying to get the boat into, and potentially out, of the water?

    4) What paperwork is involved with the transfer of ownership?



    Postive and the inevitable doom-gloomer feedback eagerly awaited!

    Chris
    A survey should sort out your first concern
    In terms of a sea trial -if the vendor is serious then they should be offering that
    Ownership just means a bill of sale, receipted of course. If you need to finance the purchase then that would bring its own conditions.
    A survey might sound over the top and others might suggest it unnecessary - i wouldnt buy a boat like that without one and it would also give you an idea of whether you are paying a fair price - you would use this estimated value as the basis for your insurance.
    Hope that helps
    Good luck.
    Claymore

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Grenoble
    Posts
    28,044

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-s View Post
    1) Is there anything structural or other known-fault/issue/concern with this boat design that we should look out for?

    2) Is there any overwhelming reason why this boat would not be suitable?

    3) If we insist on a sea-trial, whats the etiquette on paying to get the boat into, and potentially out, of the water?

    4) What paperwork is involved with the transfer of ownership?



    Postive and the inevitable doom-gloomer feedback eagerly awaited!

    Chris

    1) I have no experience of the boat so can't offer an opinion. Get your friend who has built boats to have a quick look over her, he should be able to spot any obvious problems.

    2) No, given my previous answer, it is a local boat used almost certainly as you plan to do.

    3) Normally as for surveys you pay. but at 3K you are getting what you pay for, a reasonably serviceable small boat, unless the sails and hull have holes in them or the engine doesn't run you are not going to learn much by a sea trial. See answer 1.

    4) Use the RYA form.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    35,838

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    I would not get a survey on a 3k boat unless it was the only way for insurance to be available. But then I'm reasonably experienced with most aspects of boat problems. If you're not, then maybe either getting a survey or getting a knowledgeable friend to look over it might be worthwhile.
    I'm not familiar with that particular design, but I would imagine you want to have a good look at all the highly stressed areas, e.g. keel attachment area, mast step, chain plate areas, main bulkhead that takes the mast compression load or whatever.
    If you spot any cracks, crazing or repairs, then paying a GRP boat repairer to look at it and quote for any necessary repairs might be as good as a survey?

    If the boat is local to you, it may be worth discretely asking around, people will know if the boat had any problems (and tell you all about it after you've bought it!).

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    8,283

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Problem with sea trials, for the owner, is that he may not want or be able to use the boat so if you decline to buy, he is stuck with the difficulty of looking after it and/or getting it back out of the water. Sure as eggs the next prospective buyer would want to see the hull! This could cost him up to 500 quid so if he declines, or asks for money up front, it is quite understandable.
    At the very least it makes the bargain difficult.

    The boat looks ideal for what you want, you seem to have your eyes open. An offer based on the fact that you are not going to ask for a launch or maybe even a survey, might get the boat at a keen price.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Ronda & Marbella Spain
    Posts
    3,372

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Well done - brilliant decision - I remember moving from a mirror dinghy to a 22ft Galion cabin cruiser and it was the best thing I ever did... A small cabin sailboat changes everything. Mine was on the Hamble and had a small Tomas outboard engine and a bucket for heads.. Three weeks after buying her I was in Cherbourg and never looked back. Really pleased for you!

    You posted questions:
    1) Is there anything structural or other known-fault/issue/concern with this boat design that we should look out for?
    If it looks OK with no structural damage then it`s probably fine... Inevitably you will want to add bits and pieces but the main thing is to get a boat. All boats are a compromise. On this forum the quality of various boats attracts a very wide range of opinion and it is always opinion only...

    2) Is there any overwhelming reason why this boat would not be suitable?
    You will find out - Probably depends on what you want to do with her but she sounds fine for a first cabin boat.

    3) If we insist on a sea-trial, whats the etiquette on paying to get the boat into, and potentially out, of the water?
    On larger boats the purchaser pays all costs for hauling the boat for a survey as well as the Survey and associated costs so you should be prepared to pay the costs of getting her into the water for a sea trial - and out.

    4) What paperwork is involved with the transfer of ownership?
    You need to use a bill of sale either from the RYA which is a bit OTT or just a paper listing the boat, engine and trailer with ref numbers if possible and stating you are buying her 64 shares for X pounds free of all loans or mortgages... and thats it.

    The two major expense items are the motor - it must not smoke and probably you should have it serviced if you buy. The other are the sails.. If you can push your finger through probably near the luff then its going to cost replacing them.
    https://youtu.be/snAKIOEPVYo panama canal
    www:michaelbriant.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Essex
    Posts
    21,570

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    I've not sailed one but the Pegasus has always seemed a good boat, and I think 23ft is exactly the right size for a first cruiser. Your year in a dinghy isn't very much in the scheme of things but will give you a head start over those who haven't done this. If you want to hone your skills then carry on racing; there's nothing like charging around in your second-biggest investment to concentrate the mind. A year or three in the Pegasus will teach you a lot about cruising, if only how to cook, and you'll have a lot of fun.
    Far away is near at hand in images of elsewhere

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Considering purchasing our first non-dinghy boat

    Quote Originally Posted by TLouth7 View Post
    In addition to the sale price have you worked out a budget for ongoing costs?
    Kind of, we've a rough idea of the combined mooring, storage, in/out costs, re-antifouling and engine service plus insurance, which are about the only 'fixed' costs. Of course, it's the unexpected ones we can't factor in! If the additional costs for the first couple of years are in the 2K to 3K per year, that's acceptable, but would probably raise questions on whether the boat is worth that much additional expense and whether we should have bought one in better condition to begin with!

    And, thanks to everyone else who replied!

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