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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    6,661

    Default B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    Have been looking around at sailboats of 30-35ft for a while now. Seen plenty of old Westerlys and Moodys needing work. Just coming to terms with the fact that I can buy a much newer Bavaria for the same budget but want shoal draught and these are a bit like rocking horse poo. Just looking at what looks like a very nice Legend 33 but it has this B&R Rig thingy which I find a bit worrying. Argument seems to be that sweeping the shrouds aft and out as far as possible and having a 3/4 fractional forestay can give easier upwind performance with a fully roached main and self tacking jib...... Hmmmmm maybe, but going downwind don't those swept back stays and spreaders mean the mainsail can't be let out fully? Also isn't it just an excuse to have a lighter mast section and less rigging keeping the cost down? Anyone out there with experience of these rigs? Am I being over cynical? Other than that this boat looks pretty good and has shoal draught and a reasonable engine. Cant fault the condition otherwise. What does the panel think??

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    4,695

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    I have not owned one (though I came very close to buying a near-new Hunter 36), but have sailed one. A Dorset-built twin-keel Hunter 36, a surprisingly nice coastal cruising boat with a really nice interior. The rigs just don't fall down in normal use. The T/K Hunter sailed well to windward, though like all twin keelers sail a trace freer than a fin: but really quite good. Reaching a quite fast boat for a cruiser, but as you headed dead downwind it was a bit rubbish, though I'd have lived with that and tacked downwind. The one year old example I was considering buying looked very good at first glance but some muppet had sailed her with the under-deck shroud ties to hull webs loose, and caused hairline cracks in the coachroof mouldings. I did then have a surveyor look, but he confirmed what I suspected, that a perfect repair would be a lot of work.

    As the Hunters were the only modern twin-keelers around I gave up on that and bought a deep fin Jeanneau SO35. These had the same Yanmar 3YM30s, which on both the Jeanneau 35s and the Hunter 36s of the same 2004/5 era had overheating problems at high revs. Mostly cured by a bigger heat exchanger (done under warranty if you complained, but they did not do this if the owner did not flag it up - bad marks to Yanmar). So owners who have never run their engines hard could still have the old undersized heat exchangers. Not sure if the Hunter 33s had the same 3YM30, might have had a 3YM20 which should be OK.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Warsash
    Posts
    1,051

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    I owned a bilge keel Legend 306, with a B&R rig for four years, and never had any problems with the mast or rigging. You are correct that the position of the spreaders and shrouds does restrict the mail sail being let out fully downwind, however, I counteracted this by using a cruising chute when the wind wasn’t too strong.

    Overall, I was very pleased with the build quality of the 306, and it was like a tardis down below.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Solent
    Posts
    6,661

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    This is a shoal draught fin keel not bilge and built by Lhurs Marine. Looks good on paper. Am trying to find reasons why I should not buy it! does have a 3YGM30 engine which has seemingly had a problem with the cylinder head gasket, Supposedly now fixed. How would I tell if the heat exchanger has been upgraded??

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    West Australia
    Posts
    11,514

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    I ahve never heard this kind of rig called a B and R and I wonder why these letters. However I have a friend with a similar rig on his 32 fter. ie no back stay. I am not drawn to the idea of no back stay however it seems to work OK. My own boat has the swept back spreaders and yes the main sail does chafe on the spreader tips. A sacrificial patch seems to wok OK to minimise sail damage ad mostly I just let it chafe when running.
    So Band R rig enables a huge roach on the main. I am not sure this is such a huge advantage as more main sail area can be achieved with taller mast or just add more jib area or genacre or similar. However for all that I did break my back stay on the little boat while racing in a good wind with spin up. The fractional rig went loose but did not fall down. Supported by the load of the main sailand main sheet and the aft mounted chain plates. So maybe a back stay is not so critical after all. Still nice to have for sail shape adjustment.
    Anyway OP if likes the boat could easily cut down roach and add a back stay. Fit a large crane to the mast top of course.
    good luck with the boat hunt. ol'will

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
    Posts
    1,191

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    Quote Originally Posted by boatmike View Post
    Have been looking around at sailboats of 30-35ft for a while now. Seen plenty of old Westerlys and Moodys needing work. Just coming to terms with the fact that I can buy a much newer Bavaria for the same budget but want shoal draught and these are a bit like rocking horse poo. Just looking at what looks like a very nice Legend 33 but it has this B&R Rig thingy which I find a bit worrying. Argument seems to be that sweeping the shrouds aft and out as far as possible and having a 3/4 fractional forestay can give easier upwind performance with a fully roached main and self tacking jib...... Hmmmmm maybe, but going downwind don't those swept back stays and spreaders mean the mainsail can't be let out fully? Also isn't it just an excuse to have a lighter mast section and less rigging keeping the cost down? Anyone out there with experience of these rigs? Am I being over cynical? Other than that this boat looks pretty good and has shoal draught and a reasonable engine. Cant fault the condition otherwise. What does the panel think??
    I'm not sure what a B&R rig is but swept back spreaders and 3/4 forestay sounds just like most high performance racing dinghies. A backstay is a right royal pain in the b*m.

    Certainly your mainsail does chafe on the spreaders on a run. If you do it a lot get a reinforcement patch fitted where the mark is on the sail. Most boats do need a little assistance in the department of downwind so get yourself a spinnaker of one sort or the other. They are fine to use if you've practiced with them often enough.

    Remember that in today's performance oriented fractional rigs with no backstays, when you get a new mainsail you can get one of the nice square-topped ones that will assist your boatspeed in every point of sail.

    Coming from a fast dinghy/racing background I'd be happy with no backstay. There's no reason why you need one unless you wren't prepared to accept progress.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    1,508

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    Quote Originally Posted by William_H View Post
    I ahve never heard this kind of rig called a B and R and I wonder why these letters. However I have a friend with a similar rig on his 32 fter. ie no back stay. I am not drawn to the idea of no back stay however it seems to work OK. My own boat has the swept back spreaders and yes the main sail does chafe on the spreader tips. A sacrificial patch seems to wok OK to minimise sail damage ad mostly I just let it chafe when running.
    So Band R rig enables a huge roach on the main. I am not sure this is such a huge advantage as more main sail area can be achieved with taller mast or just add more jib area or genacre or similar. However for all that I did break my back stay on the little boat while racing in a good wind with spin up. The fractional rig went loose but did not fall down. Supported by the load of the main sailand main sheet and the aft mounted chain plates. So maybe a back stay is not so critical after all. Still nice to have for sail shape adjustment.
    Anyway OP if likes the boat could easily cut down roach and add a back stay. Fit a large crane to the mast top of course.
    good luck with the boat hunt. ol'will
    B&R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%26R_rig

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    4,695

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    Bergstrom & Ridder = B&R

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Sail on the Medway, Kent from Chatham Maritime Marina
    Posts
    1,821

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    On my Westerly Fulmar there is a ¾ rig. The mast is kept up with swept back spreaders to hold the load of the forestay. There is a backstay and it has very little tension. I believe the Hunter B&R rig are slightly more swept back than mine. No dinghies have a backstay and the mast is sufficiently supported.

    The B&R is a well tested rig and it is just not having a backstay feels wrong if you are used to one. The Hunter was designed with this in mind and as a cruising boat it is very unlikely to have high loadings on a run anyway.
    If my foresight was as good as my hindsight, I would be a multi-millionaire.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    10,121

    Default Re: B&R Rig on Hunter boats

    My old man had a Legend 336 for 10 years or so. We did a lot of miles in that boat. Never felt like the rig was a risk. Only reason I wasn't it's biggest fan was that getting headstay tension wasn't easy, so performance in the heavy stuff wasn't great.
    Yes the main lies against the spreaders, but in 10 years we hadn't worn through the spreader patches on the main. And if we had they are a few quid from a chandler.

    In short, if I liked the rest of the boat (and Legends as a whole can be a bit marmite...) the rig would be a non issue.
    You never know, I might be right!

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