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  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    36,763

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    A couple of points that some people might not appreciate: I have been in the privileged position of sailing a boat of a similar size and I’ve also sailed a long keeled schooner (albeit that one was only 40’)

    121’ sailing schooners with long keels don’t behave in the same way as a modern finned keeled yacht.
    They respond to the helm rather slowly (which you may notice in the video)
    They still obey the laws of sailing regarding centre of effort of the sails though... Bearing away would be difficult if not almost impossible without a major alteration of sail trim. With lots of people on deck (who perhaps aren’t sailors or aren’t used to handling the schooners gear) then the skipper needs to think a long way ahead.

    It certainly looks as though bearing away would have been a better option, but it would probably have needed earlier coordinated action from helm and sail trim.

    ....!
    Basically no action was taken until far too late.
    So, you need to ease some sheets to bear away.
    Same as any other boat, you shouldn't be setting more sail than you've got adequate crew to manage.

    The problem is the basic concept of charging around in a confined, busy area, with a boat load of 'paying guests'.
    You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    A Member State of the European Union
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    4,952

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    ...
    You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.
    " Brexit is like watching a library being burned down by people who can't read"

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    36,763

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Poignard View Post
    I wasn't joking. When you're running a big boat with 'guests', it's a serious job keeping them out of danger from the boom, winches, sheets etc. Small boat sailors are often the worst guests, they don't realise the scale of the thing when you let the sheet out on 90ft of boat there is a lot of force and it won't stop because you're in the way. It is industrial machinery.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    A Member State of the European Union
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    4,952

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    I wasn't joking.
    I know you weren't. I was amused by the succinct way you put it.
    " Brexit is like watching a library being burned down by people who can't read"

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    24,078

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Is there something very close to the starboard side of the ship - looks like a buoy maybe. Perhaps there wasn't enough water to pass green to green

    Looks as if the ships turned into each other with the ship turning to port as the schooner put the tiller over - might not even have been an attempt to tack - perhaps just wanted to use momentum to carry the boat out of the way.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    36,763

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Is there something very close to the starboard side of the ship - looks like a buoy maybe. Perhaps there wasn't enough water to pass green to green

    Looks as if the ships turned into each other with the ship turning to port as the schooner put the tiller over - might not even have been an attempt to tack - perhaps just wanted to use momentum to carry the boat out of the way.
    I would imagine the ship was anticipating anything but the schooner cutting across its bow, so turning to port is what you'd expect the ship to do.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    24,078

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    I would imagine the ship was anticipating anything but the schooner cutting across its bow, so turning to port is what you'd expect the ship to do.
    Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,002

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Basically no action was taken until far too late.
    So, you need to ease some sheets to bear away.
    Same as any other boat, you shouldn't be setting more sail than you've got adequate crew to manage.

    The problem is the basic concept of charging around in a confined, busy area, with a boat load of 'paying guests'.
    You need enough crew to manage the boat, and some more to manage the guests.
    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    I wasn't joking. When you're running a big boat with 'guests', it's a serious job keeping them out of danger from the boom, winches, sheets etc. Small boat sailors are often the worst guests, they don't realise the scale of the thing when you let the sheet out on 90ft of boat there is a lot of force and it won't stop because you're in the way. It is industrial machinery.
    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently
    Which are all summed up by ‘inadequate preparation and anticipation by the skipper’.

    Does this come under MAIB? I will be very interested to read the report if it does. They’re usually comprehensive and well written.
    Semper aliud

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    36,763

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Indeed but it looked like a last minute manoeuvre so I guess he had expected to pass red to red but for some reason the schooner couldn't - I guess the schooner skipper might well have been distracted or he would have done things differently
    Not AIUI.
    The schooner would have had to cross the bows of the ship to get red to red.
    Was never going to happen unless things had been done differently 10 minutes previously.
    The box boat was following the channel.
    The schooner was beating outside the channel?
    I think the box boat expected the schooner to remain outside the channel.
    If that is the case, the root of the incident is with the schooner's previous tack, which placed it onto a collision course, maybe partly due to a windshift.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,816

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Clearly a very different scenario to the one that was first described at the beginning of the thread. Watching the video, I go entirely with John Morris's comments about the behaviour of long keelers. My instinctive reaction in that situation would have been to pout the helm up and bear away, and until i gave it a little more thought realised that putting the helm down to try to get across the box;s track was the correct manouver, but far too late.

    Many years ago I was on a long keel gaffer of around 35ft. On a broad reach with the massive mainsail typical of the breed full of wind, but well under control. Another boat was approaching on a 'stand on' course, so our skipper tried to alter course to go round behind him. At the wrong moment a heavy gust caught us. We let fly the main sheet, but the boat simply would not pay off. As we turned down wind, so the drive in the mainsail increased again, and pushed her nose back up, smack into a T bone collision with the other boat. Thankfully both were built like battleships, and incredibly, neither boat suffered serious damage.

    I agree with John Morris, the helm down order should have come 2 minutes or so earlier. Maybe with a scratch novice crew the skipper was distracted at the key moment? I cant see why he didnt act sooner. But then I wasnt there.
    Is Conservation for wildlife or conservationists?
    http://boatownersresponse.org.uk

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