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  1. #91
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Lots of heat and more prejudice.

    Just answer one simple question - which vessel was give way vessel?
    The schooner... see post #88

  2. #92
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    Oct 2002
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Lots of heat and more prejudice.

    Just answer one simple question - which vessel was give way vessel?

    See post 88.

    I think a lot of folk assumed it would be the sailing boat and it looks like they were right.
    It's difficult to imagine how you could operate a narrow channel, with two way sea traffic, if they had to concede to crossing ferries or small boats.
    Last edited by doug748; 16-06-19 at 11:22.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by doug748 View Post
    I think this applies:

    "Section 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway
    (1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway.
    (2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels:

    1. entering that fairway,
    2. crossing that fairway,
    3. making turns in that fairway,
    4. leaving their anchoring or mooring grounds."

    Which I would paraphrase as - no buggering around in front of big ships. However there are a lot of words and I am not totally sure this has application in that part of the Elbe, but I think so.

    From:

    German Traffic Regulations for Navigable Maritime Waterways
    That all may or may not be true (except your paraphrasing isn't very helpful)

    However, which was the big ship here? Or were they both big ships under the rules?
    Semper aliud

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    That all may or may not be true (except your paraphrasing isn't very helpful)

    However, which was the big ship here? Or were they both big ships under the rules?


    I don't think you need to be a master mariner to figure it out.

    I'm sorry my paraphrasing is not to your taste but if the helm of that sailing boat had brought it to mind he may have kept his boots dry.

  5. #95
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    May 2001
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Collision avoidance is just that whoever was 'stand on' under the rules. The over riding requirement to try to avoid collision whatever the rules say. The ship, seeing the schooner coming up on his stbd bow, started to turn to port to give it more room. Absolutely correct given the relative positions of the two vessels.

    Turning to Stbd across the oncoming ships bows, particularly when it is clear the ship is already taking avoiding action turning to port? Bad call I would say, born out by the result.
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  6. #96
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    Jul 2002
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    Farnham, Surrey
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by doug748 View Post
    I don't think you need to be a master mariner to figure it out.

    I'm sorry my paraphrasing is not to your taste but if the helm of that sailing boat had brought it to mind he may have kept his boots dry.
    But I think you’re still stuck on the idea that the sailing vessel isn’t a big ship. It was a large vessel in a narrow channel and yours and others assumptions that the big ship has rights because it’s ‘obviously a large vessel in a restricted or narrow channel’ isn’t necessarily true.

    I’m certainly NOT saying that the schooner was blameless, but the schooner wasn’t the give way vessel in the automatic way some people are suggesting.
    Semper aliud

  7. #97
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    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    The regs quoted at #88 aren't about size. 'Frinstance ... no ship coming out of Brunsbuttel shall impede any ship in her way to or from Hamburg regardless of size.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,269

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    But I think you’re still stuck on the idea that the sailing vessel isn’t a big ship. It was a large vessel in a narrow channel and yours and others assumptions that the big ship has rights because it’s ‘obviously a large vessel in a restricted or narrow channel’ isn’t necessarily true.

    I’m certainly NOT saying that the schooner was blameless, but the schooner wasn’t the give way vessel in the automatic way some people are suggesting.
    AS I understand it, the schooner was not operating in the narrow channel, it was operating outside the channel until very shortly before impact. The box boat was going up the edge of the buoyed channel IAW the rules.
    The german rule:
    2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels:

    1. entering that fairway,.....

    would appear to explicitly state the same as my interpretation of the normal 'shall not impede....'

  9. #99
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    May 2007
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    37,269

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    Run that one past me in a little more detail. What rule says this and how does it apply in these circumstances?
    Rule 9
    Narrow channels
    (a). A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the
    channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
    (b). A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can
    safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

    It is clearly a narrow channel.
    The box boat can only safely stick to the channel, OK, maybe it could survive straying a few metres outside, but that would be an odd interpretation.
    The schooner was sailing.

    It's really not that complicated.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    This screenshot of historic AIS data was posted on Sailing Anarchy by "Lake Schooner" on June 9th.
    http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...-in-collision/

    schooner sunk in elbe.jpg
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