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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
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    361

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Poignard View Post
    This screenshot of historic AIS data was posted on Sailing Anarchy by "Lake Schooner" on June 9th.
    http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...-in-collision/

    Attachment 78495
    Very good but that is the track of Elbe 5 after the incident ..... where she gets towed into that boat harbour and then settles on the bottom....

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    A Member State of the European Union
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    5,347

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    Very good but that is the track of Elbe 5 after the incident ..... where she gets towed into that boat harbour and then settles on the bottom....
    I'm afraid I don't know. I came across it and reproduced it here for no other reason than to give people an idea of the location where the collision occurred.

    You would need to find the source of that chartlet to get any more information.
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  3. #103
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    It appears the two tracks are proceeding in the same direction; perhaps one is the Elbe or the Astrosprinter, but I do not think the two tracks represent both vessels. I've seen it debated whether a given area counts as a "narrow channel", but in this case the German rules appear to specifically define the fairway as a narrow channel in § 2(1).

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
    Posts
    7,850

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Someone else (Sheik Yerbouti) posted this on the Sailing Anarchy thread:

    The transcript -

    this is what was sid on the video clip, who said what and which position the speaker has is not clear:



    Male voice : Wat is he up to (Was hat der denn da vor).

    - Most probably this person goes midships and presses the electrical whistle two times 5.

    Male voice: Why is he doing that (Was das nun soll?) - referring to the cargo vessel

    Male voice: Bear off ( Abfallen!)

    Other male voice: we are going to hit him (Den Treffen wir).

    Male voice: Hard to Port (Hart Backbord).

    - tiller is pushed to the port side, making the vessel turn starbord:

    Male voice: We are going to hit him right on (Den treffen wir volles Pfund)

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    732

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    That rather looks like a breakdown in communication between skipper and helmsman. Skipper intended to bear away around the stern, but helmsman misinterpreted the "hard to port" order.
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  6. #106
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    Nov 2009
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    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
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    361

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by dombuckley View Post
    That rather looks like a breakdown in communication between skipper and helmsman. Skipper intended to bear away around the stern, but helmsman misinterpreted the "hard to port" order.
    Yes, now that I have read the transcript.... quite agree with that. Whistleblower is not the skipper...

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  7. #107
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,829

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by dombuckley View Post
    That rather looks like a breakdown in communication between skipper and helmsman. Skipper intended to bear away around the stern, but helmsman misinterpreted the "hard to port" order.
    That seems to me to be the most likely explanation so far. The order given was 'hard to port'. Inexplicable unless the helmsman understood it as 'helm hard to port' rather than 'turn hard to port.' Poor communication, poor training, a panic response from an inexperienced helmsman, or a skipper giving the wrong order under pressure?

    Did they usually give the helmsman orders as helm or steering orders? The steering order 'turn to port' would in that case be understood as a helm order.

    At close quarters, as I said earlier, collision avoidance overrules rights of way, and an ambiguous order could and did result in disaster
    Last edited by oldharry; 16-06-19 at 20:32.
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  8. #108
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
    Posts
    361

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    This helm order issue was supposedly sorted in 1931... but still managed to cause confusion amongst people watching the film 'Titanic' 20 years or so ago.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/131020c0

    Seems the helmsman on Elbe 5 didn't get the memo...
    Last edited by Frank Holden; 16-06-19 at 22:18.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,252

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    This helm order issue was supposedly sorted in 1931... but still managed to cause confusion amongst people watching the film 'Titanic' 20 years or so ago.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/131020c0

    Seems the helmsman on Elbe 5 didn't get the memo...
    Left hand down a bit!

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8,575

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    How dissatisfying, if all the disagreement over who did what, why and whether they were in the right, is irrelevant...

    ...since the catastrophic cutting across the ship's bows seems only to be a misunderstanding by the sailboat's helm.

    Thanks to Little Sister for the translation.

    But I wonder why, after the skipper saw that the complete opposite of his command was being carried out, we didn't immediately hear some colourful bellowing in an attempt to correct the daftness?

    Interesting to note from the website below, that the ship's draft is a very substantial 7.2m...around 24ft. If we supposed that the schooner's skipper had initially expected the ship to turn to starboard in order that the schooner needn't be pressed into shallow water by passing green to green, the much deeper ship would presumably have encountered the shallows herself.

    https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels...MMSI-210167000

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