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  1. #111
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
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    7,888

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    Thanks to Little Sister for the translation.
    Just to clarify, it's not my translation - it's copied from a post on Sailing Anarchy.

  2. #112
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    8,406

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    How dissatisfying, if all the disagreement over who did what, why and whether they were in the right, is irrelevant...

    ...since the catastrophic cutting across the ship's bows seems only to be a misunderstanding by the sailboat's helm......


    There may have been a misunderstanding but I reckon only at the point when a collision was inevitable. It will have affected the point of collision though.

    Been a useful reminder, God bless us all.

  3. #113
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,834

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by doug748 View Post
    There may have been a misunderstanding but I reckon only at the point when a collision was inevitable. It will have affected the point of collision though.

    Been a useful reminder, God bless us all.
    I too would expect a quite colourful response to a wrongly interpreted helm order - unless the skipper turned back to see whsat the ship wa doing, and didnt realise until too late. At the point where he would have realised, the video stops anyway. As someone said earlier, a missed opportunity for a spectacularly unique bit of video! Not sure I would have had the nerve to carry on filming either, though!
    Is Conservation for wildlife or conservationists?
    http://boatownersresponse.org.uk

  4. #114
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    River Itchen, Southampton
    Posts
    6,967

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Your prejudice is showing - having had one set of false assumptions exposed as nonsense you replace it with another that are equally prejudiced.

    What is without doubt is that the Schooner was stand on vessel so the responsibility was on the ship to keep clear - and that the ship did have room to turn as it did. only too late. All it needed was for the ship to take that same action BEFORE getting 5 from the schooner and everything would have been fine. Had he even given the sound signal required by the rules that might have been enough. In both points the ship is definitely to blame.

    Not saying the schooner is blameless - I would love to know why he didn't/couldn't turn to port. But there must have been a reason for trying to tack rather than bearing away.
    it is not without doubt that the schooner was stand on. Why do you say that?

  5. #115
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    River Itchen, Southampton
    Posts
    6,967

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    But I think you’re still stuck on the idea that the sailing vessel isn’t a big ship. It was a large vessel in a narrow channel and yours and others assumptions that the big ship has rights because it’s ‘obviously a large vessel in a restricted or narrow channel’ isn’t necessarily true.

    I’m certainly NOT saying that the schooner was blameless, but the schooner wasn’t the give way vessel in the automatic way some people are suggesting.
    no not give way based on size John but if it was a narrow channel for the ship (likely as you say) he was obliged not to impede. Which he clearly did.

  6. #116
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    no not give way based on size John but if it was a narrow channel for the ship (likely as you say) he was obliged not to impede. Which he clearly did.
    Narrow channel ~ 470ft ship ~ 25ft draft. Total cluster F...

  7. #117
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    676

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Out of interest, what role do you think the person was who hurried back to sound the Horn twice, and then took the helm at the last moment. was he the skipper, he seamed to be making decisions on what he could see. was he the Skipper ?. More surprising in the film is the Passengers, they could see early on the risk of collision. So Lucky no one was killed or drowned.

    Steveeasy

  8. #118
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,365

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    A German sailing friend who is familiar with large traditional vessels agreed with that translation (he’s perfectly bilingual) and pointed out to me that big tiller steered vessels are prone to this type of confusion, particularly where, as here, there are tiller ropes.

  9. #119
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,155

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kola View Post
    Narrow channel ~ 470ft ship ~ 25ft draft. Total cluster F...
    470 ft ship and 121' boat. Not so straightforward.

    Plenty of sailing boats with 5 metre plus draft - (which is a much deeper draft than some of the coasters that ply their trade round the coast and up narrow channels.)
    Semper aliud

  10. #120
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,155

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    no not give way based on size John but if it was a narrow channel for the ship (likely as you say) he was obliged not to impede. Which he clearly did.
    I completely agree - but I was trying to get people to see beyond the silly knee jerk reaction of "It was a yacht in a narrow channel and therefore the ship was automatically the stand on vessel because it was bigger (and commercial was mentioned earlier which a complete red herring and nothing to do with IRPCS).

    The yacht shouldn't impede because it was sailing. It's one of the very few exceptions to the power sail rule. Nothing to do with size.
    Semper aliud

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