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  1. #121
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,230

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    A German sailing friend who is familiar with large traditional vessels agreed with that translation (he’s perfectly bilingual) and pointed out to me that big tiller steered vessels are prone to this type of confusion, particularly where, as here, there are tiller ropes.
    But as others pointed out, it would also have been handy to crack some sheets if wanting to bear away.
    Even fin keel sloops can refuse to bear away with the genoa oversheeted, let alone the main.

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    8,401

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    But I think youíre still stuck on the idea that the sailing vessel isnít a big ship. It was a large vessel in a narrow channel and yours and others assumptions that the big ship has rights because itís Ďobviously a large vessel in a restricted or narrow channelí isnít necessarily true...

    .



    Forget what you think my assumptions might be, look at my words and the facts.

    Making up things and then denouncing them in ringing tones is feeble and bluffs nobody.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Home - Sothampton, Boat - Gosport
    Posts
    10,013

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Elbe 5 draft: 12', 3.66m

    Astrosprinter draft 7.3m

    Nothing's changed my opinion - and it's nothing but a sofa hero's opinion - that it's imprudent to sail something like that in a narrow channel shared with large vessels when you've got passengers on board. One thing with a good crew and nothing to distract them, quite another when you've got passengers who can be guaranteed to distract you at exactly the wrong moment.
    Steve
    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    Elbe 5 draft: 12', 3.66m

    Astrosprinter draft 7.3m

    Nothing's changed my opinion - and it's nothing but a sofa hero's opinion - that it's imprudent to sail something like that in a narrow channel shared with large vessels when you've got passengers on board. One thing with a good crew and nothing to distract them, quite another when you've got passengers who can be guaranteed to distract you at exactly the wrong moment.
    ^^^^^

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    664

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Cant understand why hardly anyone did not have lifejackets on. Its a miracle anything is left of the boat and everyone survived. I suspect this accident will have long lasting consequences.

    Steveeasy

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,138

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by doug748 View Post
    Forget what you think my assumptions might be, look at my words and the facts.

    Making up things and then denouncing them in ringing tones is feeble and bluffs nobody.
    I haven’t made up anything.

    And don’t get your knicks in a twist. There were others jumping on the wrong reasons.
    Semper aliud

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    While I may have - in an attempt to keep things simple -used the wrong terminology on one occasion the rules on the Elbe are as I imagined them to be...plus an extra bit...
    More info here https://www.bsh.de/DE/PUBLIKATIONEN/...cationFile&v=8

    From page 43..

    "ß 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway
    (1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regula- tions for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway.
    (2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels
    1. entering that fairway,
    2. crossing that fairway,
    3. making turns in that fairway,
    4. leaving their anchoring or mooring grounds."

    Major difference with rule 9 is that the vessel in the fairway has 'right of way' over all comers..... you can't come out of Brunsbuttel on your 10,000 motorship and expect a 1000 ton coaster coming down from Hamburg to give way to you... even though you are on his starboard bow...

  8. #128
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Summer Walton, Winter Iberia
    Posts
    9,547

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    While I may have - in an attempt to keep things simple -used the wrong terminology on one occasion the rules on the Elbe are as I imagined them to be...plus an extra bit...
    More info here https://www.bsh.de/DE/PUBLIKATIONEN/...cationFile&v=8

    From page 43..

    "ß 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway
    (1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regula- tions for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway.
    (2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels
    1. entering that fairway,
    2. crossing that fairway,
    3. making turns in that fairway,
    4. leaving their anchoring or mooring grounds."

    Major difference with rule 9 is that the vessel in the fairway has 'right of way' over all comers..... you can't come out of Brunsbuttel on your 10,000 motorship and expect a 1000 ton coaster coming down from Hamburg to give way to you... even though you are on his starboard bow...
    What defines a fairway?

    Must it be a buoyed channel?
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    East Sussex.
    Posts
    21,219

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    I have not followed all this and have not time to read all the posts, but if I am correct that the container ship was proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, it does not matter a bit if the schooner was also doing so because by definition a tacking vessel is making turns. It does not say so in the quoted regulations but presumably vessels traveling in opposite directions in the fairway are normally expected to pass port to port.
    Working on immortality - One day at a time.

  10. #130
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Summer Walton, Winter Iberia
    Posts
    9,547

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman_E View Post
    I have not followed all this and have not time to read all the posts, but if I am correct that the container ship was proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, it does not matter a bit if the schooner was also doing so because by definition a tacking vessel is making turns. It does not say so in the quoted regulations but presumably vessels traveling in opposite directions in the fairway are normally expected to pass port to port.
    Bit difficult to comply, if you are constrained by your draught and a yacht sailing down your stbd side decides to tack under your bow and then cocks it up.
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Neither a Remainer or a Leaver be. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst✔️

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