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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    I’m a yacht master that teaches theory for power and sail to yachtmaster level, and whilst I only teach practical in motor boats I have done loads of yacht racing and cruising - I’d consider myself to be a competent sailor.

    And I have no idea what you’re talking about. I guess it’s a flunked tack of some sort. But I’m not sure.

    A commercial skipper may not have ever sailed. Why should he have?

    To blame him for a collision for not anticipating that is laughable.
    I was responding to Posts 8 and 9 that suggested that the container ship might somehow have taken into account the possibility of the schooner missing stays. The OOW wil have seen the schooner going about to a course that would take him clear. Even if he knew enough about sailing to know that the manoeuvre could go wrong, there is absolutely nothing he could have done about it from what i have seen. The failed tack put it fully into the area of unavoidable collision for both vessels.
    Is Conservation for wildlife or conservationists?
    http://boatownersresponse.org.uk

  2. #22
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    Jul 2003
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldharry View Post
    I was responding to Posts 8 and 9 that suggested that the container ship might somehow have taken into account the possibility of the schooner missing stays. The OOW wil have seen the schooner going about to a course that would take him clear. Even if he knew enough about sailing to know that the manoeuvre could go wrong, there is absolutely nothing he could have done about it from what i have seen. The failed tack put it fully into the area of unavoidable collision for both vessels.
    Sorry OH I had no beef with what you said i shouldn’t have replied with a quote I was responding to the thread in general.
    Trouble with a small iPhone screen.
    In fact I completely agree with everything you say here So +1 from me! With a correct quote this time!
    And now can someone tell me what missed stays are?
    Last edited by Elessar; 11-06-19 at 11:48.

  3. #23
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    Mar 2007
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    Atlantic
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Sorry OH I had no beef with what you said i shouldn’t have replied with a quote I was responding to the thread in general.
    Trouble with a small iPhone screen.
    In fact I completely agree with everything you say here So +1 from me! With a correct quote this time!
    And now can someone tell me what missed stays are?
    In failing to complete the Manouver of passing a sailing vessels bow through the wind, it will end up 'stalled ' with no power in the sails and no water flow over the rudder.

    Straightforward to recover from even on a vessel of size, but time consuming and therefore mind concentrating if there is little sea room or a risk of collision exists.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by capnsensible View Post
    In failing to complete the Manouver of passing a sailing vessels bow through the wind, it will end up 'stalled ' with no power in the sails and no water flow over the rudder.

    Straightforward to recover from even on a vessel of size, but time consuming and therefore mind concentrating if there is little sea room or a risk of collision exists.
    Thank you. Literally a failed tack as I assumed. I thought that was called getting “in irons”. I’ve not heard the term missed stays before.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Thank you. Literally a failed tack as I assumed. I thought that was called getting “in irons”. I’ve not heard the term missed stays before.
    I was taught 70 years ago it was 'missed stays'. Interestingly after 65 years I never before heard it referred to as a 'failed tack' though the meaning is more obvious. I always understood 'in irons' to mean the vessel was stalled with her nose into the wind, with the sails not drawing, and insufficient steerage way to complete the manoeuvre, drifting back down wind out of control until sufficient speed was gained for steerage way. Not so common on modern boats which will tend to fall away from an in irons position, but a serious hazard for the likes of Hornblower, and Bolitho with their square rigged long keelers!

    In my understanding what happened here was the schooner missed stays, or had a failed tack, and fell back under the bows of the oncoming ship. She would probably have missed the cargo boat had she been caught in irons, or at worse had a glancing collision rather than being T boned.
    Is Conservation for wildlife or conservationists?
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  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    Hence WAFI

    IMO, the one thing any vessel, from an Optimist to a supertanker needs to be in confined waters is predicable.
    Agreed. (WAFI = Wind Assisted NonForumFriendlyWordSignifyingReproduction Idiot)

    Much of the unpredictability is down to the nut on the wheel.

    One thing my father taught me (his sailing career began in 1919 and ended in 1985, and only his very last boat had an engine) was the importance of keeping way on and keeping in control, when in confined waters. This is counter intuitive but correct. ELBE 5 missed stays because she didn’t have enough way on when she started to wend.
    Last edited by Minn; 11-06-19 at 16:00.

  7. #27
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    Nov 2002
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    West Mersea
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldharry View Post
    I was taught 70 years ago it was 'missed stays'. Interestingly after 65 years I never before heard it referred to as a 'failed tack' though the meaning is more obvious. I always understood 'in irons' to mean the vessel was stalled with her nose into the wind, with the sails not drawing, and insufficient steerage way to complete the manoeuvre, drifting back down wind out of control until sufficient speed was gained for steerage way. Not so common on modern boats which will tend to fall away from an in irons position, but a serious hazard for the likes of Hornblower, and Bolitho with their square rigged long keelers!

    In my understanding what happened here was the schooner missed stays, or had a failed tack, and fell back under the bows of the oncoming ship. She would probably have missed the cargo boat had she been caught in irons, or at worse had a glancing collision rather than being T boned.
    I've always been told 'missed stays' is a distinct situation. The vessel was tacked and failed to complete the manoeuvre. I was told a number of manoeuvres could have got the vessel 'in irons' including suddenly taken aback and other unexpected situations. But whether that is right or wrong, I do not know.
    www.crossingthethamesestuary.com

  8. #28
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    Jul 2008
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Yes; she wasn’t in irons; she missed stays, because she didn’t have enough velocity to get past the eye of the wind.

    There’s a good discussion in Michael Frost’s two books.

    Had she got into the eye of the wind and stuck there until she made a stern board (‘reverse your helm or else!’) she would have been in irons.
    Last edited by Minn; 11-06-19 at 16:18.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Essex
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    22,450

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    I don't think it is necessary to be pedantic about these terms. Although I could get caught in irons in my 10m boat if I were careless, missing stays is something that I would associated with a larger vessel, especially something like a Thames barge that needs a backed foresail to go about.
    Far away is near at hand in images of elsewhere

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    interesting and informative discussion.

    And clearly beyond a commercial skipper who has likely never sailed.

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