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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    interesting and informative discussion.

    And clearly beyond a commercial skipper who has likely never sailed.
    And if the master of the ship had more sailing experience than this entire forum put together, had served his time with the Flying P Line , etc etc etc... what was he meant to do?

    Take some of the way off his ship and have the mega box boat close astern of him run up his backside?... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Take all the way off his ship, lose steerage, way, and take a sheer to port... straight into the inbound chemical tanker?.... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Carry on regardless in the belief that the skipper of the sailing boat would have enough experience not to stuff things up?

    What he should have done... upon seeing that the sailing boat skipper had stuffed things up ... was to sound five blasts while telling the mate to make sure that he had noted the fact in the bell book.........

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    6,042

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Thank you. Literally a failed tack as I assumed. I thought that was called getting “in irons”. I’ve not heard the term missed stays before.
    "In irons" refers to the situation where the boat has failed to get the head through the wind, and has remained head to wind, gathering stern-way. It is unlikely with a fore-and-aft rigged vessel, but commonplace with a square rigged vessel. "Missing stays" is when the head fails to go through the wind, and the boat pays off on the same tack as it was on previously. "In irons" is harder to recover from (in open water) than "missed stays". Of course, in restricted waters with traffic around, either is likely to end badly!

    In my earliest sailing days my dad owned a cutter-rigged converted lifeboat - missing stays was always a possibility!

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    5,434

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    And if the master of the ship had more sailing experience than this entire forum put together, had served his time with the Flying P Line , etc etc etc... what was he meant to do?

    Take some of the way off his ship and have the mega box boat close astern of him run up his backside?... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Take all the way off his ship, lose steerage, way, and take a sheer to port... straight into the inbound chemical tanker?.... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Carry on regardless in the belief that the skipper of the sailing boat would have enough experience not to stuff things up?
    Good points. And perhaps the skipper of the sailing ship should be aware of its tacking abilities and either not attempt to tack down a narrow channel in a F5-7 with lots of commercial shipping around, or at least to have the engine running in background to ensure a tack could be safely completed.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    River Itchen, Southampton
    Posts
    6,965

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Holden View Post
    And if the master of the ship had more sailing experience than this entire forum put together, had served his time with the Flying P Line , etc etc etc... what was he meant to do?

    Take some of the way off his ship and have the mega box boat close astern of him run up his backside?... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Take all the way off his ship, lose steerage, way, and take a sheer to port... straight into the inbound chemical tanker?.... just in case the sailing boat stuffed things up.
    Carry on regardless in the belief that the skipper of the sailing boat would have enough experience not to stuff things up?

    What he should have done... upon seeing that the sailing boat skipper had stuffed things up ... was to sound five blasts while telling the mate to make sure that he had noted the fact in the bell book.........
    Yep completely agree. But as was said at the beginning of the thread “steam gives way to sail”.
    It’s definitely worth reading past that rule.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,274

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Would this area be under the direction of 'traffic control'? In which case it may be known if the controller was aware of the movements of the sailing vessel and whether the container boat obeyed directions and made the controller aware of the situation.
    In Southampton and Portsmouth, passing manoeuvres are often organised over the VHF.
    But it's possible the sailing vessel was tacking upwind intending to stay out of the main channel and hence not directed by VTS or whatever. Although it's a big boat, it may be small enough to rank as a 'small craft' hence excluded from the main channel, not requiring a pilot, not subject to 'port control' etc.
    None of which would necessarily prevent the container boat being in for some criticism.
    There are parallels with the Marchioness, it's basically another tripper boat gets swatted by commercial traffic?

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6,250

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Unlikely to be any similarities to the Marchioness incident. Times have changed and both vessels will have been keeping a proper lookout and neither will have been under the command of a ratarsed watchkeeper. At least I hope that is the case these days on the crowded river Elbe.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    24,281

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    I'd love to know what happened in the run up to the collision. Presumably both boats were being skippered by experienced professional skippers and were well aware of each other's presence.

    Why did the schooner choose that place to tack and why was the ship so close? Surely you normally tack at the edge of the channel so if you miss stays you hit the bank - or was he trying to tack before crossing into the main channel?

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    SPAIN,Galicia
    Posts
    12,545

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    I hope he had his engine running and there wher other reasons to be out of control in a busy waterway.........from my couch!

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Home - Sothampton, Boat - Gosport
    Posts
    10,030

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Yep completely agree. But as was said at the beginning of the thread “steam gives way to sail”.
    It’s definitely worth reading past that rule.
    There was a reason I put that in inverted commas .

    Another provocative one: I can't see any sign of the commercial vessel claiming to be constrained by its draft, so it was the give way vessel.

    Whatever the legalities, I don't hold with that either. AFIAK, in such situations, when I'm the minnow meeting a whale, might is right, especially in a channel. I won't be wasting my time looking for a cylinder, I'll be working out how to keep out of its way in such a way that SS Big Bugga will know he doesn't have to worry about me.
    Steve
    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    24,281

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    , when I'm the minnow meeting a whale, might is right, especially in a channel. I won't be wasting my time looking for a cylinder, I'll be working out how to keep out of its way in such a way that SS Big Bugga will know he doesn't have to worry about me.
    This wasn't a minnow meeting a whale - it was a 121' long sailing boat meeting a 480' power vessel. Those are of comparable sizes.

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