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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
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    8,052

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by stuarta View Post
    There's been some pre-collison footage released:

    https://youtu.be/ry4_eJaOJmw
    Video now 'unavailable - removed by user'.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    5,550

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleSister View Post
    Video now 'unavailable - removed by user'.
    Well, if you didn't see it before it was removed my summary of the video (if I recall correctly) would be
    - sailing along on starboard, probably beam reach or perhaps close reach, with ship coming towards them from about 20 degrees off the port bow
    - ship quite close and distance rapidly closing - quite a lot of crew on deck going over to look (with concern?) at rapidly closing ship
    - suddenly large tiller pushed down to start to tack, across the bows of the now very close ship
    - video ends
    Very short video so difficult to get wider context. But certainly seemed that a slight bear away of circa 20 degrees to port would have cleared the ship (assuming no other hazards, though if there had been hidden shallows personally I would choose a grounding over an impact with moving ship) whereas the tack put broadside on to the approaching ship.
    I would emphasise this is just an interpretation of a short (circa 30 second) video with no before or after context.
    Key questions for the investigation will include what was the course of both boats in the minutes previously, and when was the ship actually seen by the watch keeper / skipper on the sailing boat - again not things that can be deduced from the video
    Last edited by dunedin; 14-06-19 at 18:17.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Benfleet Essex
    Posts
    1,110

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    If you go on you tube & put Elbe no 5 in the search box its the second vid down.
    Having watched it i am absolutely staggered as to why they attempted to tack, maybe they didnt want to run aground? they could have borne off a bit & the ship would have missed them. The closing speed was such the box boat had no chance to avoid them, It dont look good.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Hopefully somewhere warm
    Posts
    9,473

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleSister View Post
    Video now 'unavailable - removed by user'.
    Same one?


  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,678

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by GHA View Post
    Same one?

    Yes

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8,620

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    The only thing being steered worse than the schooner, is the camera. Outstanding opportunity for spectacular crash footage, missed.

    There does seem to be something of the 'rabbit in the headlights' about the helmsman's inertia in the first 30 seconds there. Is it possible that any movement of the helm, slight or extreme, port or starboard, could have been more calamitous than 'wait and see'?

  7. #57
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    SPAIN,Galicia
    Posts
    12,605

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Looks like a totally different situation than was purported at the beginning of the thread,why not bear away?

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,524

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elecglitch View Post
    Yes
    That looks quite staggeringly incompetent, and the last desperate attempt to turn even tighter across the bows of the container ship doesn't help. Unless there was some circumstance not shown, it looks to be as if the Elbe No.5 was completely to blame.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,318

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    That looks quite staggeringly incompetent, and the last desperate attempt to turn even tighter across the bows of the container ship doesn't help. Unless there was some circumstance not shown, it looks to be as if the Elbe No.5 was completely to blame.
    A couple of points that some people might not appreciate: I have been in the privileged position of sailing a boat of a similar size and I’ve also sailed a long keeled schooner (albeit that one was only 40’)

    121’ sailing schooners with long keels don’t behave in the same way as a modern finned keeled yacht.
    They respond to the helm rather slowly (which you may notice in the video)
    They still obey the laws of sailing regarding centre of effort of the sails though... Bearing away would be difficult if not almost impossible without a major alteration of sail trim. With lots of people on deck (who perhaps aren’t sailors or aren’t used to handling the schooners gear) then the skipper needs to think a long way ahead.

    It certainly looks as though bearing away would have been a better option, but it would probably have needed earlier coordinated action from helm and sail trim.

    PS although the narrow channel rule might apply in this case, those who say might is right are a b nuisance on the water as their actions are so unpredictable. Stick to the rules!
    Semper aliud

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6,360

    Default Re: Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

    The vid shows a spit of riverbank to port and the ship was quite close to it so it could be that there was nowhere to go by bearing away. Possibly the schooner was trying to get to the other side in order to pass red to red but there was never going to be enough space to do that. The helm movement was clearly too little too late. How they got into that position in the first place is another matter.

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