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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
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    20,459

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    That being the case, why does it say:-


    As written this draft very much applies to the likes of thee and me.
    Iwould like to stress that the MGN’s are non-mandatory guidance that the owner of a pleasure vessel does not need to follow and they do not prevent an owner from carrying out maintenance on their own vessel.
    Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...UzA4dQEdPBW.99

  2. #402
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
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    20,459

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by rszemeti View Post
    Which bit of 'they are not prepared to put that simple fact in the "guidance notes" ' are you having trouble comprehending?
    Even after all the links Ive given, you still dont understand what a Guidance Note is. Oh well......

  3. #403
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,188

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by capnsensible View Post
    Iwould like to stress that the MGN’s are non-mandatory guidance that the owner of a pleasure vessel does not need to follow and they do not prevent an owner from carrying out maintenance on their own vessel.
    And indeed you have stressed that fact repeatedly and vociferously

    But you continue to ignore the lesson of experience that guidance has a nasty habit of becoming either effectively or actually compulsory

    To cite an example from my own personal experience, the HSE issued a guidance note "Electrical safety at places of entertainment Guidance Note GS50" which had no more or less force in law than an MGN

    The very next fesitval I was involved in as Entertainements Technical Manager (the guy responsible for the stage, lighting and PA rigs) had a stipulation in the event insurance that the guidance in GS50 had to be followed. A failure to do so (not that I would because in fact GS50 was and remains a well written document with little to take issue with) would have invalidated the event liability cover

    So the guidance became effecfively compulsory

    So how long will it be before these MGNs, as they stand, are used against a boat owner?

    I guarantee that at some date in the not so distant future we would see MAIB reports saying "the vessel foundered because the owner had not followed the advice in MGNx" or similar. And it's virtually certain that sooner or later an insurance claim will be contested for the same reason.

    I actually don't have a problem with the MCA issuing guidance notes that cover pleasure vessels. It's the content of these guidance notes that I take issue with. They're badly written by, it seems to me, people with a lack of real world knowledge (for example, the notion that changing a furling headsail for a larger sail is a stability issue. Why "furling"? It makes no difference whether the sail is furling or not! And changing a 135% genoa for a 155% genoa on an average cruising yacht is hardly likely to lead to instant capsize!

  4. #404
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Second Coast, Ross-shire, overlooking Gruinard Bay.
    Posts
    7,221

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Bru, that is a very sensible take on this worrying issue. I fear you may be proven correct within a disastrously short time-frame.
    Kay Sarah Sarah
    57°51.42' N 5°29.44' W

  5. #405
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Where life is good
    Posts
    13,734

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    From which we need to prepare a response that shreds these badly written documents.
    Life is too short to drink bad wine.

  6. #406
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,188

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    From which we need to prepare a response that shreds these badly written documents.
    On that front, a collective response will not be effective, it will count as just one response

    Nor are boilerplate responses a good idea, people who deal with responses to consultations get very good at spotting "cut and paste" jobs and, trust me on this, they get bundled up together (either literally or figuratively) and also count for less

    The most effective responses are individually thought out, well written, to the point and above all else as brief as possible

    Mine is in draft at the moment but is currently rather longer than I'd like and needs an attack of the pruning shears!

  7. #407
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    6,856

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bru View Post
    On that front, a collective response will not be effective, it will count as just one response

    Nor are boilerplate responses a good idea, people who deal with responses to consultations get very good at spotting "cut and paste" jobs and, trust me on this, they get bundled up together (either literally or figuratively) and also count for less

    The most effective responses are individually thought out, well written, to the point and above all else as brief as possible

    Mine is in draft at the moment but is currently rather longer than I'd like and needs an attack of the pruning shears!
    I suspect that it won't matter what you write. You will get the standard response letter, which I and others have received.

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,188

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    I suspect that it won't matter what you write. You will get the standard response letter, which I and others have received.
    A standard response is generally all I would expect. However, some responders have had specific replies to specific points they have made and I shall be making some very specific points!

    From long experience on both sides of the consultation fence through my former involvement with inland waterways politics, responses that make specific points are often filtered out for further attention by the people working on the detail especially if a significant number of responders are making basically the same point (without just copying and pasting)

    There are no guarantees of course but if you're going to respond you might as well make the effort to respond as effectively as possible. It costs nothing but a bit of time and once in a while it really does make a difference

  9. #409
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,390

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    I suspect that it won't matter what you write. You will get the standard response letter, which I and others have received.
    None the less, Bru is right; we just need to show them that what they are proposing will be strongly opposed.

  10. #410
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,505

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by nimrod1230 View Post
    My question is what are these proposals to achieve? How terrible are the accident figures these actions are expected to improve? It would appear to be a set of possible solutions looking for a set of problems!
    Yep

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