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  1. #501
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,316

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    I just got this response from the MCA. I have deleted references to the CA but have sent the whole text including that part to the CA and to the RYA.

    It does contain the important admission that the MCA do not have the legal right to regulate private pleasure craft under 13.7 metres Register length.

    Quote

    Dear Minn,

    Thanks for your email and for providing your comments on the consultation process. In addressing your three specific points;



    The consultation period of four weeks was agreed due to the stakeholder engagement process that preceded the public consultation element. The MGNs were initially drafted in November and December 2018 where various members of RYA staff were consulted and helped with the drafting process.


    The draft MGNs were then subsequently consulted upon internally to the MCA before going through a “soft” external consultation where the opinions and feedback were requested from a number of different stakeholders including British Marine, RYA, Cruising Association and the YBDSA. This is normal in these situations.

    Finally, the documents were circulated formally as part of the Small Commercial Vessels Technical Working Group, with papers circulated to members on the 19th February 2019. From this point, we considered the documents to be effectively in the “public domain” as any of the stakeholders involved in the SCV TWG had the opportunity to distribute to their staff, committees and communities and seek feedback on them. We actively sought feedback throughout this process.

    (I have redacted the section on the Cruising Association but have sent it to the CA)




    The MCA is the Government agency responsible for maritime safety. Through these MGNs there is no intention to regulate the pleasure vessel sector because, as you rightly point out, we are not legally able to do so, with the exception of Class XII vessels (see below). We have acknowledged in consultation responses that we would not seek to enforce the text within the MGNs as they are not regulation.


    What we are looking to achieve is to publish a level of generic safety advice to the small vessel sector – which we feel are appropriate safety messages that should be given to both the pleasure and commercial sectors without discrimination.



    The MCA does currently regulate the pleasure vessel sector in part, MGN 599 regulates Class XII vessels (vessels which are 13.7m or greater in length) with regards to some areas around life-saving appliances and fire safety requirements. This is further increased in the Large Yacht sector for vessels over 24m in length.



    In broader terms, the text is written with the wide number of pleasure vessel owners in mind who have a diverse range of experiences and competencies. We have not tried to differentiate between the two ends of this knowledge spectrum but instead have given generic guidance. The MCA through these MGNs, as do the MAIB, recognise that whilst there is a high level of knowledge within the leisure boating community, it is not consistent throughout. Therefore these messages need to be provided to ensure that everyone has received the same information with regards to safety from the Government agency that is responsible for maritime safety.



    Finally, the MCA are working on a number of different areas with regards to addressing the comments from the court case with respect to Cheeki Rafiki. This is not one of those pieces of work.



    Thank you again for providing your comments on the MGNs around Yacht and Powerboat Safety.



    Regards,



    The Codes Team





    The Codes Team – Ship Standards

    Maritime & Coastguard Agency

    Spring Place, 105 Commercial Road, Southampton, SO15 1EG

    Safer Lives, Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas

    Unquote

  2. #502
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Far S. Cornwall
    Posts
    13,117

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    I think Minn's letter should be copied, with multiple signatures to who ever is the MCA 'line manager' in government, not that they have time for anything but B****t. I suspect we will find no one has much control of the MCA.

  3. #503
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Devon
    Posts
    289

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    We need a 'like' button on the forum. Good work Minn!

    Quote Originally Posted by fisherman View Post
    I think Minn's letter should be copied, with multiple signatures to who ever is the MCA 'line manager' in government, not that they have time for anything but B****t. I suspect we will find no one has much control of the MCA.
    I suspect she's too busy with Brexit and trying hang onto BoJo's coat tails, but I'll certainly be dropping a line to my MP regarding these MGNs and ask her to write to her colleagues in the ministry of transport in order to find out why they're wasting good money on this rubbish.

  4. #504
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Those look like weasel words from the MCA on the subject of external consultation. "Help with drafting by various members of the RYA", "soft" consultation, "distribution within the Small Commercial Vessels working group" with "opportunity to distribute to their staff". All of that could be accomplished entirely by MCA staff who happen to also have membership of RYA, CA etc.
    Even if I am being cynical about that, their process gets nowhere near the level of external consultation that I would expect.

  5. #505
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,316

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Balbas View Post

    I suspect she's too busy with Brexit and trying hang onto BoJo's coat tails, but I'll certainly be dropping a line to my MP regarding these MGNs and ask her to write to her colleagues in the ministry of transport in order to find out why they're wasting good money on this rubbish.
    Good plan. I like it!

  6. #506
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,316

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by scrambledegg View Post
    Those look like weasel words from the MCA on the subject of external consultation. "Help with drafting by various members of the RYA", "soft" consultation, "distribution within the Small Commercial Vessels working group" with "opportunity to distribute to their staff". All of that could be accomplished entirely by MCA staff who happen to also have membership of RYA, CA etc.
    Even if I am being cynical about that, their process gets nowhere near the level of external consultation that I would expect.
    Absolutely! They have been caught with their paw in the cookie jar. They are addressing some three and a half million people who go in for recreational water sports.

  7. #507
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    Absolutely! They have been caught with their paw in the cookie jar. They are addressing some three and a half million people who go in for recreational water sports.
    I am reminded of a scene from The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, where the Vogon constructor fleet arrives to destroy earth to make way for a hyper-expressway and earthlings are told that they had had ample time to appeal the decision if they had only taken the trouble to read the documents stored in a locked office on Alpha Centauri, 4 light years away.
    Sorry, revealing my age there. (From memory, may have some of the fine details wrong)
    Last edited by scrambledegg; 19-07-19 at 09:53. Reason: Caveat

  8. #508
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,316

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by fisherman View Post
    I think Minn's letter should be copied, with multiple signatures to who ever is the MCA 'line manager' in government, not that they have time for anything but B****t. I suspect we will find no one has much control of the MCA.
    That would be Nusrat Ghani, MP:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/nusrat-ghani

    I strongly recommend that anyone contacting Nusrat and hoping to get her attention should include a suitable photo opportunity. Naming a cruise ship works well. Don’t ask me how I know this.
    Last edited by Minn; 19-07-19 at 10:18.

  9. #509
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
    Posts
    20,369

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    I just got this response from the MCA. I have deleted references to the CA but have sent the whole text including that part to the CA and to the RYA.

    It does contain the important admission that the MCA do not have the legal right to regulate private pleasure craft under 13.7 metres Register length.

    Quote

    Dear Minn,

    Thanks for your email and for providing your comments on the consultation process. In addressing your three specific points;



    The consultation period of four weeks was agreed due to the stakeholder engagement process that preceded the public consultation element. The MGNs were initially drafted in November and December 2018 where various members of RYA staff were consulted and helped with the drafting process.


    The draft MGNs were then subsequently consulted upon internally to the MCA before going through a “soft” external consultation where the opinions and feedback were requested from a number of different stakeholders including British Marine, RYA, Cruising Association and the YBDSA. This is normal in these situations.

    Finally, the documents were circulated formally as part of the Small Commercial Vessels Technical Working Group, with papers circulated to members on the 19th February 2019. From this point, we considered the documents to be effectively in the “public domain” as any of the stakeholders involved in the SCV TWG had the opportunity to distribute to their staff, committees and communities and seek feedback on them. We actively sought feedback throughout this process.

    (I have redacted the section on the Cruising Association but have sent it to the CA)




    The MCA is the Government agency responsible for maritime safety. Through these MGNs there is no intention to regulate the pleasure vessel sector because, as you rightly point out, we are not legally able to do so, with the exception of Class XII vessels (see below). We have acknowledged in consultation responses that we would not seek to enforce the text within the MGNs as they are not regulation.


    What we are looking to achieve is to publish a level of generic safety advice to the small vessel sector – which we feel are appropriate safety messages that should be given to both the pleasure and commercial sectors without discrimination.



    The MCA does currently regulate the pleasure vessel sector in part, MGN 599 regulates Class XII vessels (vessels which are 13.7m or greater in length) with regards to some areas around life-saving appliances and fire safety requirements. This is further increased in the Large Yacht sector for vessels over 24m in length.



    In broader terms, the text is written with the wide number of pleasure vessel owners in mind who have a diverse range of experiences and competencies. We have not tried to differentiate between the two ends of this knowledge spectrum but instead have given generic guidance. The MCA through these MGNs, as do the MAIB, recognise that whilst there is a high level of knowledge within the leisure boating community, it is not consistent throughout. Therefore these messages need to be provided to ensure that everyone has received the same information with regards to safety from the Government agency that is responsible for maritime safety.



    Finally, the MCA are working on a number of different areas with regards to addressing the comments from the court case with respect to Cheeki Rafiki. This is not one of those pieces of work.



    Thank you again for providing your comments on the MGNs around Yacht and Powerboat Safety.



    Regards,



    The Codes Team





    The Codes Team – Ship Standards

    Maritime & Coastguard Agency

    Spring Place, 105 Commercial Road, Southampton, SO15 1EG

    Safer Lives, Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas

    Unquote
    Excellent and accurate response from the MCA. Congratulations to all of their team for telling it like it is.

  10. #510
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Far S. Cornwall
    Posts
    13,117

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by capnsensible View Post
    Excellent and accurate response from the MCA. Congratulations to all of their team for telling it like it is.
    I'm sorry, but i don't think many here have your rosy shade of spectacles.

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