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  1. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,253

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    Do you think that was a good or a bad thing?
    personally, (having been brought up in the building trade and worked on site from the age of 12 years)i have seen some pretty bad accidents -- so i think is a bad thing- looking back i sometimes think that those supposed to do the "training" ie the craftsmen around the apprentices, were as dangerous, in many cases, as the youngsters they were supposed to be looking after.
    practices then led to men with severe injuries in their early 40's due to shear ignorance not only by them but by their employers ( i say that even though my father employed many hundreds)
    I started working on building sites in the mid eighties. Hard hats were only worn on the rare occasion when we had a site visit from someone important. I am long out of that game, but nowadays, I get the feeling that you would be thrown off site if caught without one at any time. It didn't seem an issue at the time, but looking back I can see the error of our ways and am thankful that I escaped unharmed and that these rules are now enforced to protect the workers.
    If found in the Brexit forum, please return to the real world.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Second Coast, Ross-shire, overlooking Gruinard Bay.
    Posts
    7,197

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    A few years back
    (perhaps fifteen)
    I was walking up beside the Gruinard River. There was an officer and a squad of men laying out some planks of wood on the grass, in a large open area, for why I know not.They were all wearing yellow construction-site type hard hats.
    After chatting to them for a few minutes I asked the Officer the reason for the hard hats; surely nothing possibly could fall on their heads in the open, in the Highlands?
    The Officer took me aside and said,
    "F**K OFF".

    I gained the impression he was not best pleased with me, or the regulations.

    But come on! Soldiers, in the open, playing with planks of wood on the grass? Safety is important, but common sense must be used too.
    Why not wear their service issue combat helmets?
    Kay Sarah Sarah
    57°51.42' N 5°29.44' W

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    8,595

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    My side worry is that an exclusion appeared on this years company insurance, it excludes safety critical equipment, after much toing and froing I find out for marine use it is anything that may effect safe navigation. In this context it is the propulsion of the vessel, i.e. the engine, ut could also be sails, or come to it oars!!!!. So I cannot supply a panel that has a battery isolator switch, if it failed the engine would stop, therefore safety critical.

    Makes design one big step harder for me, but if this becomes standard what happens to marine engineers or riggers ?

    Brian
    Kddpowercentre VASR charge

  4. #74
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Second Coast, Ross-shire, overlooking Gruinard Bay.
    Posts
    7,197

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    I can see it now.
    I fitted a new Furlex and forestay in 2014 prior to sailing s/h round Britain.
    Furler drum comes unstuck (as it did with me in May this year).
    A split pin in a clevis pin had dropped out and then the clevis pin. Furler jammed and jib with it.
    I effected a temporary repair, which is IMHO a lot stronger than the manufacturer's design.
    Say I had lost
    sailing power and hit another boat, buoy or whatever and done damage (minor or major).

    Insurance claim comes back refused because I'm not a qualified rigger with all the specific tools, either ashore or aboard (in the middle of The MInch).
    I'm reported to the relevant authority and I'm facing a fine and/or prison.

    Our world has gone mad.
    Kay Sarah Sarah
    57°51.42' N 5°29.44' W

  5. #75
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Returned to South Coast from West Coast of Scotland.
    Posts
    1,756

    Default Re: MCA consultation - in the wake of Cheeki Rafiki

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Define pleasure? Clipper, is that pleasure or commercial?
    Pleasure is defined in the MCA documents.....in short, .muppets like me sailing on my own boat without paying guests except possible contribution to actual expenses incurred on the trip. Clipper is Commercial.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    2,372

    Default Re: MCA consultation - in the wake of Cheeki Rafiki

    These draft MGNs will certainly feed into the Reporting practices of yacht surveyors.... and their 'recommendations' to insurers.

    For example, if/when my insurance company insists on a survey, and a qualified surveyor turns up and eyes my new lightweight Beta 14 engine, he's likely to remark that that will have an as-yet unknown effect on the Calculated Righting Moment as computed by the boat's designer on his analogue sliderule nearly 50 years ago. He'll then eye my shiny new twin furling head sails, and say the same. He'll then tell me that he - or someone similarly qualified - needs to be engaged to calculate a new Stability Certificate to replace the old one..... and then he'll confess he already knows the designer didn't publish such a calculation, 'cos it wasn't needed then..... for he'll otherwise need to make a costly Recommendation in his Survey Report, and my insurers will insist.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    scotland
    Posts
    3,333

    Default Re: MCA consultation - in the wake of Cheeki Rafiki

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Define pleasure? Clipper, is that pleasure or commercial?
    According to recent MAIB definitely commercial and under scrutiny as we speak I suspect

  8. #78
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    SPAIN,Galicia
    Posts
    12,450

    Default Re: MCA consultation - in the wake of Cheeki Rafiki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoidberg View Post
    These draft MGNs will certainly feed into the Reporting practices of yacht surveyors.... and their 'recommendations' to insurers.

    For example, if/when my insurance company insists on a survey, and a qualified surveyor turns up and eyes my new lightweight Beta 14 engine, he's likely to remark that that will have an as-yet unknown effect on the Calculated Righting Moment as computed by the boat's designer on his analogue sliderule nearly 50 years ago. He'll then eye my shiny new twin furling head sails, and say the same. He'll then tell me that he - or someone similarly qualified - needs to be engaged to calculate a new Stability Certificate to replace the old one..... and then he'll confess he already knows the designer didn't publish such a calculation, 'cos it wasn't needed then..... for he'll otherwise need to make a costly Recommendation in his Survey Report, and my insurers will insist.
    Anything is possible,sadly

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    7,891

    Default Re: MCA consultation - in the wake of Cheeki Rafiki

    If a Government Agency starts going down the road of trying to wreck the marine leisure boat industry there will be an outcry.

    I'll lay a tenner with anyone that your project fear never materialises.

    Commercial irresponsible operators and owners, probably a good thing to tighten up.

    A couple of tragedies have shown that it is needed.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,057

    Default Re: The end of owner maintenance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by rszemeti View Post
    Whilst you are correct that these are not mandatory, if something was to happen, effectively they are, because if somethign goes wrong, you end up standing in front of a Jury, facing their lawyer armed with these notes, explaining that because you had done all your own maintenance over the winter that "the owner failed to comply with accepted best practice"

    Say your engine breaks down coming in on a rough night, your boat is lost on rocks and your insurance company declines to pay because you have not followed accepted good practice and have done all the maintenance yourself for the last 30 years, instead of using a Marine Professional.

    Or the rig comes down in a storm, even though inspected yearly and 7 years old, the instructions from the original builder state it shoudl be replaced every 5 years (the rig document here makes replacement in line with the builders instructions mandatory).

    Etc etc etc ... while the general advice on the quality and integrity of repairs is good and sensible, the requirement that only a Marine Professional should carry out any work or inspection is onerous.

    At the very least they should contain the phrase "Marine Professional or other Competent Person" at least then you are able to argue in front of a jury that you were competent to complete the task.
    Total Twoddle I am afraid you obviously don’t understand that the law in this regard in the Uk does not stipulate who must do work only what must be done and to what standard.

    This applies to cars and buildings in the main part which are far more numerous and dangerous than boats will ever be

    Further more these are recommendations

    Further more how do you define a marine professional for pity’s sake and what qualifications do you need

    As I said total twoddle
    Last edited by Bigplumbs; 27-06-19 at 18:41.
    Only ever look down on a person when you are bending over to help them up.

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