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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingGoose View Post
    Iagree but the problem is they walked off the Job and said be damned with managment , this is a problem
    I remember some years back a lady fell down a well in Central Scotland and the Fire Brigade came but did not have the so called skills to retrive her acording to Risk assesment even though couple of the lads wanted to go dowm they were told know by senior command , they waited for mountain Rescue which took some time to get to them at this point when they retived her she had already died
    the coroner did state if she was rescued earlier she might have survied , caused a right argument up here , and there are the 2 sides but by god I wonder how many of those firemen wanted to be dammned with regualtion and get a rope and go down
    When I worked in the Fire Service one of my crew jumped into a dock, against specific instructions not to, in an unsuccessful attempt a rescue a person in a submerged car. He was given, quite rightly, a gallantry award.
    I remember the shocking case of 2 PCSOs in Manchester who refused to attempt to rescue a drowning child from a frozen lake. Having worked alongside members of all emergency services I could mot believe that they had taken this decision.
    No one should be coerced into risking their own life for others but, having done so voluntarilyy, disciplinary action is inappropriate beyond belief.
    This cannot be seen as anything other than ar*e covering by people who place their careers above human life.
    I used to teach dynamic risk assessment and used the scenario of a child trapped in a burning building containing LPG cylinders. I taught that the the law said to not commit rescue crews. Everyone in the room smirked at that concept.
    Last edited by Quiddle; 06-07-19 at 16:35.
    I'd rather be tethered to a pad eye than tethered to an iPad.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    The two coastguards are volunteers and, when they are not on a "shout", are free to do as they wish with their own time and their own resources. As soon as they were told to "stand down" they are in their own time and the MCA has no control over them unless they are called out on another shout, which they weren't.
    They still had MCA equipment with them. It seems unlikely that "stand down" implies "and leave our Land Rover wherever it is".

    The MCA management responsible for the decision are totally and comprehensively incompetent ...
    I am impressed - perhaps "intrigued" is the better word - that you managed to deduce that from one short and one-sided article.

    Incidentally, how would you plan to win an unfair dismissal claim for a couple of volunteers?
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  3. #13
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    They still had MCA equipment with them. It seems unlikely that "stand down" implies "and leave our Land Rover wherever it is".

    I am impressed - perhaps "intrigued" is the better word - that you managed to deduce that from one short and one-sided article.

    Incidentally, how would you plan to win an unfair dismissal claim for a couple of volunteers?
    See post # 1 where the unfair dismissal issue is well covered.

    I'm not sure whether your first point is serious or you are simply being argumentative? There is no suggestion that the MCA vehicle would have been left where it was. It was always in the same location as the two coastguards and was taken back to the station, as expected, when the two guys returned to their base after assisting the elderly member of the public, so, perhaps 15 minutes later than it would have been otherwise. That seems to me to be a fair trade-off for assisting an elderly gentleman in distress.

    At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I think of course. However, I suspect that local management will be overruled and the two coastguards will be re-instated at the appeal hearing although the bad publicity has now been generated by the local idiot management.

    Richard

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    12,015

    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    I can't help suspecting that, as usual, there's rather more to this sorry tale than we're being told

    We're only hearing / reading one side of the story, the MCA no doubt being constrained by legal considerations and unable to respond in detail

    Obviously, it's speculation but I can't help thinking that, on the face of it, the decision to permanently stand down two senior volunteers is unlikely to be solely based on this one incident which, of itself, would surely deserve no more than a reprimand at most. Perhaps it was a final straw or perhaps there was more to the incident itself than has been revealed

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    East Sussex.
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    21,085

    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Lets hope the appeal to the divisional commander succeeds. Its not a huge offense not to drive the land rover back, and hopefully the DC will say something on the lines of "Next time, one of you get the official vehicle back to base while the other one does the good Samaritan act."
    Working on immortality - One day at a time.

  6. #16
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Apr 2007
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I don't believe that is a correct summary. The two coastguards are volunteers and, when they are not on a "shout", are free to do as they wish with their own time and their own resources. As soon as they were told to "stand down" they are in their own time and the MCA has no control over them unless they are called out on another shout, which they weren't.

    The owner of the vehicle was elderly and distressed so as they were in the own free time, they took off their uniforms and and used their own vehicle to help him, exactly as any members of the public might do.

    The only thing they did wrong, as accepted by the MCA, is they that did not take the MCA vehicle back to the station before they did their good samaritan act.

    The MCA management responsible for the decision are totally and comprehensively incompetent and if my decision making as a manager of a large organisation were are imbecilic as the those guys, I would have been sacked many years ago.

    Richard

    Soooo... just to be clear.... they are free to determine when they undertake tasks which are part of their “employment”??

    Cause it would seem to me that the return and restoration of equipment ready for further use is part of their contracted work, and it’s not really down to them to decide when and if they should do that.

    If they had left their gear in the field, and pissed off to the pub for a couple of bevvies, would that be acceptable?

  7. #17
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    Mar 2013
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    London
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    Soooo... just to be clear.... they are free to determine when they undertake tasks which are part of their “employment”??

    Cause it would seem to me that the return and restoration of equipment ready for further use is part of their contracted work, and it’s not really down to them to decide when and if they should do that.

    If they had left their gear in the field, and pissed off to the pub for a couple of bevvies, would that be acceptable?
    This is likely to be seen in the context of reasonable behaviour. Nipping off to the pub would clearly not be reasonable and might well be illegal if they later drove the vehicle. Stopping off to help out the old bloke in distress would be a different scenario and if that is all there was to it, I think it would be entirely reasonable.
    The problem they might have as volunteers is that they might not be employees legally thus having no, or lesser, rights under employment legislation.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    See post # 1 where the unfair dismissal issue is well covered.
    Unfair dismissal legislation, with very, very few exceptions, does not cover unpaid volunteers. I am intrigued to know how you are going to work round that.

    There is no suggestion that the MCA vehicle would have been left where it was. It was always in the same location as the two coastguards and was taken back to the station, as expected, when the two guys returned to their base after assisting the elderly member of the public, so, perhaps 15 minutes later than it would have been otherwise. That seems to me to be a fair trade-off for assisting an elderly gentleman in distress.
    I run an organisation with about fifty unpaid volunteers if safety-critical roles If we told a couple of them not to do something and a couple of them said "OK, we'll go off duty for fifteen minutes and do it anyway" we would not be amused at all.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles Wader View Post
    The problem they might have as volunteers is that they might not be employees legally thus having no, or lesser, rights under employment legislation.
    Indeed. You can't unfairly dismiss people you don't employ.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  10. #20
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Indeed. You can't unfairly dismiss people you don't employ.
    You certainly can’t award them damages either..... as the formula for damages is based on earnings.

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