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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    Soooo... just to be clear.... they are free to determine when they undertake tasks which are part of their “employment”??

    Cause it would seem to me that the return and restoration of equipment ready for further use is part of their contracted work, and it’s not really down to them to decide when and if they should do that.

    If they had left their gear in the field, and pissed off to the pub for a couple of bevvies, would that be acceptable?
    I would have thought that the difference between being on a "shout" and then being "stood down" was so clearly different to "freedom to determine when they undertake which tasks are part if their employment" that it would not need me to explain it.

    As for "pissing off to the pub for a couple of bevvies", have you ever worked in an organisation?

    Richard

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Unfair dismissal legislation, with very, very few exceptions, does not cover unpaid volunteers. I am intrigued to know how you are going to work round that.
    I run an organisation with about fifty unpaid volunteers if safety-critical roles If we told a couple of them not to do something and a couple of them said "OK, we'll go off duty for fifteen minutes and do it anyway" we would not be amused at all.
    Good grief .... this thread reached the usual level of stupefying pain even quicker than the usual YBW specials.

    What is it about "I would need to see their contractual details to understand what their actual status is." that is so hard for you to understand, because, believe it or not, there have been successful unfair dismissal cases involving voluntary workers. It all depends upon the contractual terms in place.

    Being "not amused" is not the same as "being dismissed".

    Richard

  3. #23
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles Wader View Post
    This is likely to be seen in the context of reasonable behaviour. Nipping off to the pub would clearly not be reasonable and might well be illegal if they later drove the vehicle. Stopping off to help out the old bloke in distress would be a different scenario and if that is all there was to it, I think it would be entirely reasonable.
    The problem they might have as volunteers is that they might not be employees legally thus having no, or lesser, rights under employment legislation.
    If it was reasonable for them to assist this guy, and their excuse for doing so is that they feared for his safety as they believed he would attempt to rescue the vehicle on his own... Then why did they not use the MCA equipment?

    Surely even if they are stood down, if they are on scene and believe their is a risk to life, then they should assist...and if they had done that, then they would have had reasonable arguement for their actions...

    As it was, there is none.

    They placed others at risk by not returning an emergency services vehicle to service, And despite everyone saying that it wasn’t left unnattended I find that difficult to believe, as they clearly left the scene to fetch their own vehicle... to act as a vollunteer recovery crew...

    They were the two most senior staff on station. Their actions were no different than if they had pissed off down the pub, and if their was actually any risk to life they simply should have used the mca gear and argued the toss afterwards... I note the fire brigade didn’t assist either... and they will help out at the drop of a hat.

    Entitled senior staff showing poor leadership and judgment which in effect left others at risk, to do something which was of no consequence.

    I’d sack em.
    Last edited by photodog; 06-07-19 at 18:30.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Indeed. You can't unfairly dismiss people you don't employ.
    However, you can unfairly dismiss "workers", and they might not be "employees".

    Richard

  5. #25
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I would have thought that the difference between being on a "shout" and then being "stood down" was so clearly different to "freedom to determine when they undertake which tasks are part if their employment" that it would not need me to explain it.

    As for "pissing off to the pub for a couple of bevvies", have you ever worked in an organisation?

    Richard

    I own an organisation.

    And my employees have tasks and responsibilities and they dont get to determine when and if they should undertake or fulfill those.

    Rules are rules.


    Ps... your arguement that their tasks and responsibilities are finished after being “stood down” is nonsense... they will still be acting within their role as coastguards until they have finished any tasks an responsibilities which being on a shout entail... and this clearly includes the return of company equipment to whence it came.

    Do you see firemen just pissing off Leaving the fire truck on the side of the road?
    Last edited by photodog; 06-07-19 at 18:34.

  6. #26
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    However, you can unfairly dismiss "workers", and they might not be "employees".

    Richard

    How much do volunteers make?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    If it was reasonable for them to assist this guy, and their excuse for doing so is that they feared for his safety as they believed he would attempt to rescue the vehicle on his own... Then why did they not use the MCA equipment?

    Surely even if they are stood down, if they are on scene and believe their is a risk to life, then they should assist...and if they had done that, then they would have had reasonable arguement for their actions...

    As it was, there is none.
    Good grief. They did the best they could to follow the MCA rules by not acting outwith an official assignment in MCA uniform and with MCA equipment and you believe that they should have use MCA uniforms and equipment and argued about it later.

    On the basis of the MCA management decision taken in the extant case, your suggestion would have resulted in them being taken out an summarily executed by firing squad.

    Thank the Lord that you never attained a senior position in a well-functioning organisation.

    Richard

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    How much do volunteers make?
    Interestingly, I filed an ET1 on behalf of a dismissed employee only last year. The compensation I claimed on their behalf was nothing whatsoever to do with their level of earnings. Absolutely no link whatsoever. The Company employed a specialist lawyer from a top London law firm. Unfortunately for them, it was all to no avail and they coughed up big time.

    Richard

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    I own an organisation.

    And my employees have tasks and responsibilities and they dont get to determine when and if they should undertake or fulfill those.

    Rules are rules.


    Ps... your arguement that their tasks and responsibilities are finished after being “stood down” is nonsense... they will still be acting within their role as coastguards until they have finished any tasks an responsibilities which being on a shout entail... and this clearly includes the return of company equipment to whence it came.

    Do you see firemen just pissing off Leaving the fire truck on the side of the road?
    Ah, so were talking about "employees" are we now? It's time for you to piss or get off the pot, I'm afraid.

    Richard

  10. #30
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Good grief. They did the best they could to follow the MCA rules by not acting outwith an official assignment in MCA uniform and with MCA equipment and you believe that they should have use MCA uniforms and equipment and argued about it later.

    On the basis of the MCA management decision taken in the extant case, your suggestion would have resulted in them being taken out an summarily executed by firing squad.

    Thank the Lord that you never attained a senior position in a well-functioning organisation.

    Richard
    They would have had a much stronger case if they had stayed and acted as MCA coast guards. Whoever stood them down was not on scene. As it stands now they are stuffed.

    They should have had a discussion with their controller, clearly the MCA have a duty of care to folks, and if the controller didn’t agree to them helping they should have waited for a tow truck, or, if the driver was of such poor judgment as they feared, waited for the police.

    The excuse they used to assist simply doesn’t hold water. If they honestly felt that the elderly driver was incapable fo making a sound decision surrounding his own safety... why did they not get the police involved?

    Instead they, abandoned their emergency vehicle, and put this old duffer who they felt was incapable of driving safely, back in the drivers seat and waived him off.

    Jesus, it just gets WORSE AND WORSE.

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