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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    Then backtracks and says he’d have to check the paperwork.
    Backtracks and says he'd have to check the paperwork? What?

    I accept that you're not the sharpest knife in the forum drawer but surely even you can see that something I clearly stated in my original post cannot possibly represent any kind of "backtracking".

    Richard

  2. #42
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I will repeat this from my first post once again as you simply don't seem to have understood it:

    If these were employees in the normal sense they would be in line for a big unfair dismissal payout, and I'd be happy to represent them in court as the case would be a slam dunk win. They might still get a payout if the MCA doesn't reverse its decision although I would need to see their contractual details to understand what their actual status is.

    Now, where do I say anything about volunteers being able to make an unfair dismissal claim?

    It is the case that some people are ostensibly taken on as "volunteers" and are regarded as such by their organisation but, by dint of their documentation, rewards or activities, would actually be regarded by an Employment Tribunal as being workers or employees and both categories of these do have rights under employment law. However, as I keep saying, ad nauseam, I would need to see that documentation etc to be able to take a sensible judgement on that matter.

    Richard
    Good for you.

    I’m sure of course your use of the term “contractual” is purely for convenience sake... cause as most know who have dealings in this, volunteers don’t have contracts..

    You should familiarise yourself with the expectations and good practice associated with vollunteer agreements... as there is fairly good guidance surrounding these from organisations including the NCVO.... but the MCA is going to have to have stuffed the pooch big time if their agreements cross over into employment.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    Good for you.

    I’m sure of course your use of the term “contractual” is purely for convenience sake... cause as most know who have dealings in this, volunteers don’t have contracts..

    You should familiarise yourself with the expectations and good practice associated with vollunteer agreements... as there is fairly good guidance surrounding these from organisations including the NCVO.... but the MCA is going to have to have stuffed the pooch big time if their agreements cross over into employment.
    I would need to see your contractual details to understand what your actual status is, might well, amongst other alternatives, generate the response that "we do not have any contractual details" .... which is absolutely fine.

    Until we know whether they have anything/a contract/an agreement/a memorandum of understanding/a statement of terms and conditions, we are simply speculating so the term "contractual" is as good as any other way of describing the details.

    I'm guessing that you're new to this legal stuff?

    Richard

  4. #44
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Backtracks and says he'd have to check the paperwork? What?

    I accept that you're not the sharpest knife in the forum drawer but surely even you can see that something I clearly stated in my original post cannot possibly represent any kind of "backtracking".

    Richard
    I accept your not the sharpest knife in the drawer either... but surely even you knew that making an assertion that you could bring home the win for em if they were “normal” employees, But then qualifying that by saying you would have to “check their contractual terms” .... is an admission you know nothing about the situation.

    In fact nothing about the employment nature of volunteering at all it seems...

  5. #45
    photodog is offline Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthorpe
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I would need to see your contractual details to understand what your actual status is, might well, amongst other alternatives, generate the response that "we do not have any contractual details" .... which is absolutely fine.

    Until we know whether they have anything/a contract/an agreement/a memorandum of understanding/a statement of terms and conditions, we are simply speculating so the term "contractual" is as good as any other way of describing the details.

    I'm guessing that you're new to this legal stuff?

    Richard

    No, we are not speculating.

    Volunteers do not have contracts.

    That’s the legal status.

    They do not even legally need to have agreements. But recognised best practice is to have written agreements.

    I’m guessing your new to this volunteering stuff?

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
    No, we are not speculating.

    Volunteers do not have contracts.

    That’s the legal status.

    They do not even legally need to have agreements. But recognised best practice is to have written agreements.

    I’m guessing your new to this volunteering stuff?
    The newspaper article refers to them being "dismissed", to them appealing against "unfair dismissal" and to them being "volunteers".

    If we're not speculating, which one do you want to plump for?

    Richard

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Did the car get rescued?
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInBed View Post
    Did the car get rescued?
    The car ..... most definitely, yes.

    Did anyone step in to rescue RichardS from getting a good kicking? That's less clear.

    Richard

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    I hate to disagree with Mr Dog but ...

    Most, virtually all in fact, volunteers DO have contracts either directly or indirectly

    I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Coastguard volunteers sign an agreement and that establishes a contractual relationship

    Even a verbal agreement results in a contractual relationship - something that any organisation involving volunteers needs to be wary of

    However, Mr S needs to do a bit of research before shooting from the hip because it's well established with plenty of authoritative guidance as to when a volunteer can (rarely) and cannot (commonly) claim unfair dismissal

    To claim unfair dismissal, a volunteer has to be in all respects performing a role that is effectively unpaid full time or part time employment. Crucially, they have to be contractually obliged to work set hours and/or set duties, they have to make holiday requests which can be turned down etc.

    If a volunteer can choose whether or not they're available at any given time and/or can declare themselves unavailable for any period of time without hindrance that immediately disqualifies them from making an unfair dismissal claim (this is Third Sector Volunteer Agreements 101 stuff - when drafting volunteer agreements you make damn sure you DON'T create an employment relationship if you can possibly help it)

    Note that a requirement to turn up for a set number of training days or to volunteer for a minimum number of hours per year does not establish employment status if the volunteer van freely choose when to give of their time

    Nor does a requirement to follow procedures, complete tasks, attend for the hours agreed on a rota etc establish employment status if the attendance is genuinely voluntary

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Veteran coastguards sacked for rescuing car from cliff edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Bru View Post
    I hate to disagree with Mr Dog but ...

    Most, virtually all in fact, volunteers DO have contracts either directly or indirectly

    I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Coastguard volunteers sign an agreement and that establishes a contractual relationship

    Even a verbal agreement results in a contractual relationship - something that any organisation involving volunteers needs to be wary of

    However, Mr S needs to do a bit of research before shooting from the hip because it's well established with plenty of authoritative guidance as to when a volunteer can (rarely) and cannot (commonly) claim unfair dismissal

    To claim unfair dismissal, a volunteer has to be in all respects performing a role that is effectively unpaid full time or part time employment. Crucially, they have to be contractually obliged to work set hours and/or set duties, they have to make holiday requests which can be turned down etc.

    If a volunteer can choose whether or not they're available at any given time and/or can declare themselves unavailable for any period of time without hindrance that immediately disqualifies them from making an unfair dismissal claim (this is Third Sector Volunteer Agreements 101 stuff - when drafting volunteer agreements you make damn sure you DON'T create an employment relationship if you can possibly help it)

    Note that a requirement to turn up for a set number of training days or to volunteer for a minimum number of hours per year does not establish employment status if the volunteer van freely choose when to give of their time

    Nor does a requirement to follow procedures, complete tasks, attend for the hours agreed on a rota etc establish employment status if the attendance is genuinely voluntary
    I don't disagree with that.

    However, I have had to take my lead from the newspaper articles which specifically mention "unfair dismissal" .... but I have taken a very measured approach rather than shot anything from the hip by clearly stating in my OP that, despite what the newspapers say, If these were employees in the normal sense they would be in line for a big unfair dismissal payout..... They might still get a payout if the MCA doesn't reverse its decision although I would need to see their contractual details to understand what their actual status is.

    I don't see how I could have been any clearer.

    Richard

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