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  1. #151
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    Jul 2005
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    Sorry , so many reading I given the wrong reading , as you said there are voltages reading .
    Drop test .
    On V- .6 drop , v- runs from batteries to windlass wires
    On V+ batt to breaker in .6 breaker out .6 solenoid feed .8 solenoid windlass connection.8
    That makes much more sense.

    The total voltage drop adding together the loss in the positive and negative cables plus connections etc is 0.6v + 0.8v = 1.4v.

    This is not perfect but is OK. 1.4v is 11% and indicates voltage drop is not the cause of problems in my view. Installing larger cables etc etc will always produce an improvement but these results are resonably typical and will be seen in many installations that are not causing problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    So there a .2 different in the v- and v+ I put that down to there more connection on the v+ side . Correct .
    Yes, this is correct. If anything I would have expected more difference between the positive and negative side due to the voltage drop over the solenoid, CB, and the multiple connections.

    This test shows there is no more than the normal resistance in the solenoid itself or the associated connections despite the warmth that has been noted.

    So the windlass is being provided with adequate voltage. The tests once again indicate a problem with the windlass itself. Either it is fundamentally a low powered windlass or there is an internal problem. A larger circuit breaker would probably produce an improvement in the usable power, but not without some risks.

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Med
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    6,202

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Noelex again thanks ,
    you have gone well above I could expect especially as I give you the wrong reading .
    I think we got as afar as we can , everything seen to indicate the problem with the windlass ,
    I wait to see if I get a reply from lofran , I'm not holding much hope to be honesty as they didnt even wanted to give me an email address .
    I report back once or if I talk to them .
    As you know we cruising right now and to start stripping it while at anchor with no hope of getting parts would be stupid , we stopping early this year in oct to copper coat , as long as it keep going that be the time to strip it down , if it packs up before then we have no option .

    Again thanks so much , your help as been Outstanding , I think you know friends of ours , Chris and sue , on a cat ?
    Was hoping to meet up with them , as they will be cross next year .
    Vic
    Last edited by sailaboutvic; 15-07-19 at 20:54.
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  3. #153
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Med
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    6,202

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    I have last got an reply back from Lilizas
    I would appreciate help on comments on their email and anything I would need to put in my reply.

    The point they rise are
    They made a point of commenting on how much chain I had , stating it's more then their 170kg the max the windlass working load . They haven't taken in account that one would need to be dangling the chain 36 meters of water add the weight of the anchor to reach that working load .
    And in reality the depth at anchoring would be more like 12 mts of in the case of the op a bit more .

    In par 2 they agree my cables are more then big enough for that length run they suggest 35mm sq

    Par 3 is given the working load of 150A

    Par 5 they suggestion that the batteries are at fault
    Given we have 480ah bank 200w solar and that we are almost full charge .plus as the we always have the engine running and test shown there 14.1 v at the windless admitted after a while of constant use it drops to 11.6v I not sure I can agree with them , but then I no expect .

    Lastly they suggesting to replace the breaker for one of theirs ,
    The test shown that the breaker tripped at 160A considering they state working load is 150A one would thing my breaker was doing the job and tripping at the right time .

    All comment are use full it will help with a reply plus may bring up something we not thought off ........

    Good morning.

    Thank you for contacting Lofrans!

    First, please mind that we are the manufacturer and we cannot provide retail service, however with respect to your inquiry please advise below regarding your questions:


    1. In case you release the whole chain (70 meters) the working load would be approximately 200 kg were the maximum advised for the CAYMAN (1000W, 12V) version is 170kg. Therefore in this case the breaker is normal to trip.

    2. The 50mm^2 cables are also correct for the installation (we normally advise 35mm^2 for 20m cable).

    3. The amperage draw of the motor (under load) is approximately 150A.

    Please clarify if you have checked all the following points from the troubleshooting guide of Cayman (also available in the manual):
    [cid:image010.png@01D53D4D.E537C070]

    Additionally, please mind that based on the description of the defective solenoid you provided “the contact where totally burn out” it is very probable that the battery bank is not always properly charged, which causes the motor to draw more amps that may trip the circuit breaker and eventually will damage the motor and the control box.

    Last but not least, please mind that different brands of circuit breakers provide different “tripping times” for the same amperage. Depending on the type (thermal, magnetic, etc.) of the circuit breaker the “tripping time” is also affected differently from the ambient temperature, therefore we strongly advise to replace the circuit breaker with the one we provide for warranty validity:

    [187333] LOFRANS' CIRCUIT BREAKER THERMAL-MAGNET 100A PLUS PLATE & LED

    We remain at your disposal.


    Best Regards,
    Andreas Dimitrellos
    Service Assistant
    t: +30 210 4226274
    f: +30 210 4226273
    w: http://www.lalizas.com
    LinkedIn Profile<http://www.linkedin.com/company/lalizas>
    Lofrans' - MaxPower
    Address: 5, Via Philips
    20900, Monza
    Italy
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  4. #154
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
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    5,472

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    The only comment I have, which is of only marginal. value in this case:

    I had always believed, worked on the assumption, that a windlass should be able to retrieve the full length of chain and anchor should it inadvertently all run out mid ocean (or in a depth greater than the length of chain).

    I very vaguely recall a forum member doing exactly this some times ago years, maybe 5, whose whole rode diasappeared of the Needles, including a Spade anchor. I think he was on his way to the Med.

    2 factors - they appear to be selling a windlass with a 10mm gypsy that will, under their specification, only be 'within warranty' if it is used for a rode of less than 36m (I use your data Vic). This seems unrealistic.

    and more of the same

    Unless the charter company to whom they sell their windlass (from whom you bought) only use 35m chain rodes (is this realistic in the Med) and surely their rep (who sold the windlass must have investigated the demands of the yachts -

    Basically they should not be selling this windlass for anything other than shortish 8mm chain or maybe a 100m of 6mm chain - anything else will be outside the rated load specification.

    I did think your motor underpowered for 10mm chain - but I wonder if the whole set up is underpowered for 10mm chain (as the engineering should also be compatible with the loads expected - with an addition as a safety factor. We are using 1000 watts for 6mm chain, maybe a bit over the top but it gives my thinking (and the difference in price at the time is peanuts). Our windlass is also specced for 8mm chain (with a different, i.e. 6mm, gypsy) and not bought a small windlass specifically designed for 6mm chain, max - so we have been cautious.

    Jonathan
    Last edited by Neeves; 18-07-19 at 10:58.

  5. #155
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North Wales, sailing Aegean Sea or Menai Strait
    Posts
    21,960

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    On Jonathan's 'is this realistic' question, we are often amazed when charter boats drop their anchor a very long way out when berthing stern-to, but do not run out of chain before reaching the wall. I would suggest many of them carry more like 100 metres.
    Answers to some technical queries at new website http://coxeng.co.uk

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Sorry well under estimated My cal.
    their figures of 170 kg max working load , removing the weight of our anchor that leave 150 kg , 10mm chain @2.5 kgPM .150/2.5 60 mts , so you would need to be in 60 mts Of water not accounting for anchor weight for the windlass to be working at max working load , not sure who got enough chain to anchor in 60 mts depth .
    Yes accidents do happen , but in my case we looking at picking up 10 to 14 mts depth that 60kg not even half there working load .

    I can see your point tho if we did drop all our chin in plus 60 mts we may well have a problem .
    At the moment we no further froward finding the problem .
    Basically they saying buy our breaker , but what happen when I spend £170 and then find the problem there ?
    Test shown our breaker trips at 160A there current under load is 150A .
    Last edited by sailaboutvic; 18-07-19 at 13:30.
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  7. #157
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    Jul 2005
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    3,337

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    The good news is that at least Lofrans are happy with a 100A breaker. As you have fitted this size breaker, this is reassuring.

    The bad news is a breaker, especially the cheaper type of thermal breaker, that Lofrans are selling should not cost £170.

    The characteristics of the breaker will make a slight difference to the trip point and as we do not know this information, it is impossible to purchase an identical, or very similar breaker at a more reasonable price.

    The small difference between the apparantly normal no load current draw and the circuit breaker rating does magnify the effects of the breaker characteristics.

    It is unlikely a genuine Lofrans’ 100A breaker would make enough difference, compared to a generic 100A breaker, to have a significant impact on your problem (and it may trip earlier, not later), but it is impossible to rule out the possibility completely without knowing the trip curve and other characteristics of the Lofrans’ breaker.

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Thanks for the reply .
    The point I want to make to them just got to word it right is .
    Their stating the windlass working amps is 150A ,
    the breaker I have is tripping at 160A has my test showed ,
    so unless I got it wrong the breaker I have fitted is capable to work with their windlass without tripping early .

    The other problem which I knew they where going to bring up is the voltage although they didn't mention the voltage drop just that my batteries aren't fully charge .
    We have 480ah bank 400 W panels , my alternator charges at 14.2v when the engine running , so I don't understand how they can say there not enough voltage .

    Just out of interest to day we haul up with out the engine , I watch the Voltage , 12.7v at windlass cable it dropped to 9.8v , breaker never trip and we hauled up 35 mts of chain plus anchor .

    It's a problem that's not going to be sorted easy if at all .
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  9. #159
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
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    5,472

    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    I still think a look at the windlass itself is in order - but understand, some of, your reluctance.

    It might merit thinking through the best way to retrieve should the windlass cause problems at a(nother) critical time.

    I'm sitting at the breakfast table over a pot of coffee and I'm not being asked to fork out an endless supply of money nor produce an limitless supply of data (nor take a windlass apart) - so its easy to say many of these things

    but I think your windlass should operate flawlessly without the engine running.

    Finally - I have mentioned a couple of times the idea that a windlass should be capable of lifting the whole rode, hanging vertically, in the event the whole lot runs out (but is retained at the bitter end). No-one has commented either way, agreement nor disagreement - is this right, common practice, reasonable?

    Jonathan

  10. #160
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Here another question to throw out there going back to the drop test , the run from the batteries to the breaker is around 5 mts , just in that part alone there a 0.6v drop .
    The drop don't change across the breaker connection.
    I know the connection are clear and good , so why such a drop ?
    Compared From the breaker to the solenoid is the same length and there the drop is just 0.2 is there a reason for this or is it just the case that that part of the cable is worn more ? Just trying to understand what's happening .

    Jonathan we all carry different amount of chain what we carry now is less then we had as I had to cut some off cause of rust .
    if as you say I had to get the whole lot up and the windlass wouldn't do the job then there the handle , or has I did on Isabelle my other boat when the windlass motor died and so did my back at the same time ,
    I used chute Halyard , taken up a lump at a time . Tell a lie Christine did . I just kept moving the halyard .

    I have to say I got caught out when I brought this windlass . When I looked at their spec it said max pull 1250 kg I took that has the weight it could pull ,
    of- cause it's not but 170kg , I find that a bit miss leading in the since that max pull one would think it the max weight it can haul up , but then they do go on and give a working load , the penny should had drop then .
    But even so 170kg is a heck of a load when you think you only pulling the depth you in weight i.e. 10 mts 50 kts counting the anchor . That's still 110 kts under their figure.

    As for hauling without the engine , again as the test yesterday shown there was no problem , even when the voltage dropped under load so much .

    I think after all the test done and all the help here I back to two years ago and may just have to carry on living with it and hope it don't let me down at the wrong time . Only other option is spend spend spend and hope at some point the problem solved . But when do you stop spending .
    After you renew the breaker, then the cables then the solenoid only to be left faced with windlass . Mmmmm .
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