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  1. #191
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Lots of question Jonathan I try and break them down but first , I not pointing the finger at lofran , it could be something I did wrong ,
    all I trying to do is find the problem .with the help offered here from people who are much more knowledgeable then me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeves View Post
    This thread grows like Topsy - have a night off and there are so many posts! - with new revelations

    But Vic you have thrown a new parameter into the mix, which you omitted to mention earlier.

    If I've got it right - you will have a small starter battery for your engine, you start the engine on this battery and then use that same battery to run the windlass, with the engine running. Do you use this battery for anything else?

    No only for the engine , if you read what I wrote to Dom , I rewired the windlass cables to the house batteries did all the same test has before and got the same drop, voltage,and current reading , at this point I have to say the batteries /battery is not the problem .

    We use the starter battery - for starting the engine - nothing else, though we do use it for 2 engines (but when the first engine is started it is run out of gear at 'higher' revs - when we start the second).

    I might have said you are expecting a lot of that poor starter battery.

    But I'm no electrician - so I'll simply raise the question.

    I wonder how your charging system is wired. What size of alternator do you have?

    65A Alternator wired to an external management regulator

    All the measurements you have been taking have been under perfect conditions, maybe after everything is topped up with a bit of solar.

    I wouldn't quite say that because these measurement which are filmed was taken not how one imagine with the windlass used once and batteries fully topped up but in between using the windlass for 30 mins if not more doing other reading , I did reading with the chain and without chain, in gear and out of gear , different RPM , long rode short rode wired to house batteries / engine battery and anything else I can thing of so the windlass was well used with very little rest in between .

    When you raise a bit of scrap iron you are demanding a lot of the windlass, the engine revs will be low (unless you are running the engine at high revs out of gear) the battery is also depleted because you used it to start the diesel engine. Your windlass may be a bit underpowered (for your rode anyway - and will certainly underpowered for scrap iron). We don't know - your windlass mechanics might enjoy a bit of attention - you use it 365 and you give no indication you have looked at it previously. There is a question mark over the breaker.

    Can we put the OP to one side , as I mention the problem as been from new and the breaker have trip hauling up just chain in the pass the opening posting was an unusual circumstance agree it could happen any time .

    I think you previous test readings are suspect - unless you made the readings, early in the morning (which I assume would be a typical timing) and take those readings as you would when you retrieve the anchor. So start the engine, run windlass, leave - all in quick order. You should be taking any measurements under this 'sort of regime'. I suspect some of your measurements might be later in the day when you had maybe a bit of solar to help etc etc

    Reading That was filmed was taken later in the day ,
    all others posted was in the morning , most of the reading wasn't as you say taken under normally condition ,
    most where taken to out the windlass under more stress then we would normally use it at to get some. Ideal what's going on ,but the interesting part is the breaker never trip on any is the test done other then once when we put it under a lot of stress to see at what current the breaker would trip.
    What interesting here is although the windlass was tested under more stree then we would normally use it at the current never rose to the working current that lofran says , someone please comment on that


    The read

    At this point I don't think Lofrans are at fault - or I don't think you can point the finger at them and say its their fault - because.....

    Has said I not putting blame on windlass just trying to find out what's going on , some have made the point the windlass may not be powerful enough for us , I disagree the way we use it in normally day to day use ie picking up anchor and chain the depth of water , it should be find , if we happen to pick up as we did in the opening posting that something else and in that case we could had done with a more powerful windlass.
    Please note Lofran spec for mine windlass is for a boat 13 to 15 mts chain uses 10mm of the max length of 60 mts , we have more chain but much smaller boat . What chain one carry I don't think it matter as long as they don't use more then what's recommend , or have I got that wrong .


    As a start - I would re-wire to the house bank. I would strip the windlass.

    Already done that and as said the reading are no different, has for stripping the motor it will happen but not now , I explained why in other posting.

    But I would bow to great knowledge.

    Jonathan
    I hope I answered all your question , please keep replying you may point something I forgotten or not thought off .

    Here my question to everyone
    Lofran says the working current of my windlass is 150A
    The breaker I have fitted trip at 160A has the test shown .
    Would anyone care to comment if the breaker that's fitted isn't suite able and why .

    Lastly the film of the reading was posted so other can watch the reading in case I missing something .
    Last edited by sailaboutvic; 20-07-19 at 06:47.
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  2. #192
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Vic,

    I think you are using the forum correctly - you are providing information and asking for comment, questions and answers.

    I wish others gave the same detail

    I'm not suggesting you are pointing a finger at Lofrans in any of your posts - but people pick up mid thread, or (more commonly) at the most recent posts and might get the wrong ideas. I don't like the wrong idea being picked up and repeated.

    I'm not going to profess expertise on breakers. so I'm not going to give an answer - I ask a supplementary question:

    If the working current is 150A there is surely a safety factor, as part of the design, that it would be possible (anticipated) for that working current to be exceeded (lifting some scrap iron). Should this happen it seems odd that the windlass trips at just over working current - it allows no margins at all - maybe this normal.

    This windlass is sold with a 10mm gypsy and carrying 100m of chain (230kg) is not unusual Whereas I might think the windlass is undersized - Lofrans sell it for exactly the application for which you used it.

    Not being a sparky I might have thought the working current was, say 150W, but the assembly was designed to exceed this, say 180 W - and the breaker designed for that 180 W.

    Jonathan

  3. #193
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeves View Post
    Vic,

    I think you are using the forum correctly - you are providing information and asking for comment, questions and answers.

    I wish others gave the same detail

    I'm not suggesting you are pointing a finger at Lofrans in any of your posts - but people pick up mid thread, or (more commonly) at the most recent posts and might get the wrong ideas. I don't like the wrong idea being picked up and repeated.

    I'm not going to profess expertise on breakers. so I'm not going to give an answer - I ask a supplementary question:

    If the working current is 150A there is surely a safety factor, as part of the design, that it would be possible (anticipated) for that working current to be exceeded (lifting some scrap iron). Should this happen it seems odd that the windlass trips at just over working current - it allows no margins at all - maybe this normal.

    This windlass is sold with a 10mm gypsy and carrying 100m of chain (230kg) is not unusual Whereas I might think the windlass is undersized - Lofrans sell it for exactly the application for which you used it.

    Not being a sparky I might have thought the working current was, say 150W, but the assembly was designed to exceed this, say 180 W - and the breaker designed for that 180 W.

    Jonathan
    Please don't think I am making am argument on what you say , I know my posting can come over that way ,
    your posting question and I am trying to answer them to the best on my knowledge other wise there no point .

    The breaker lofran sell is and rate for my windlass is £170 it rated 100W I got no idea what will trip at I sure someone here might .
    It's not the £170 that's the problem I would go out and buy one tomorrow if it solves the problem ,
    It's more that I spend £170 and I be no better off , what then spend a few hundred pound on new cables ?.

    I knew when this thread drift to my windlass it wasn't going to be straight forward but one can just hope .
    Three engineer plus the hours I spend it's let alone all suggestion made here it's not that simple .

    My thought are this
    Has I try the cables on two different batteries bank with the same reading , I can discount the batteries
    We know the cables are more then big enough and unless there some kind of entermittance problem with then that too can be discounted as the problem .
    New solenoid so we can forget that ,
    which leave the breaker or the windlass .
    That's why a asking what people here think about the breaker .
    If it is the windlass then the fault been there from new .
    Even so after two and a bit years it won't be going back to lofrans it's down to me for cost of repairs
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  4. #194
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    Lots of question Jonathan I try and break them down but first , I not pointing the finger at lofran , it could be something I did wrong ,
    all I trying to do is find the problem .with the help offered here from people who are much more knowledgeable then me.



    I hope I answered all your question , please keep replying you may point something I forgotten or not thought off .

    Here my question to everyone
    Lofran says the working current of my windlass is 150A
    The breaker I have fitted trip at 160A has the test shown .
    Would anyone care to comment if the breaker that's fitted isn't suite able and why .

    Lastly the film of the reading was posted so other can watch the reading in case I missing something .
    Hi Vic, as I mentioned in post #101, there is more to breakers than simply cutting out a little above their rating; magnitude of excess, time of excess, temp, vibration etc., can all play a part. Your cb therefore may be fine or it may not - a simple multimeter test is not decisive and we don’t yet know Lofran’s spec.

    Secondly, there was a question above as to whether low voltage can burn out a motor. My advice remains that operating at a really quite-low 9.6V voltage may well damage your motor. Here’s why:

    Apply 12V to conventional lamps in a boat, switch on the engine, voltage pops to 14.5V and the lamps burn brighter and hotter while consuming more power. Lower the voltage and they will dim. To some extent the same applies to electric motors: lowering the voltage lowers the power consumption, all is good.

    Now imagine you are lifting your anchor up from the seabed and the voltage drops from 14V to 9.5V. The motor slows. When an electric motor’s coil spins in a magnetic field it creates a voltage acting in the opposite direction to the applied voltage, something known as the ‘back emf’. As the voltage is decreased the speed of the motor slows, reducing this back emf, which in turn allows more current to flow to provide the necessary power to lift the ground tackle. Every electric motor will have ‘torque vs. current’ and ‘torque vs. speed’ curves depicting these relationships. Here comes the rub, the heat produced in the coil is roughly proportional to the square of the amps and heat can now rise dangerously, exacerbated by the slowing motor’s cooling capacity being steadily reduced as its fins rotate more slowly through the air. Rotrax will tell you what happens to a stalled starter motor (with no safety cutouts) is left open circuit in a seized engine!

    The conclusion here is simple, ask Lofrans for the safe operating voltage range of your windlass and if this means running your engine while operating it, then run it. If it means being a bit light on dragging the boat forward with the windlass, then go light, or at least allow the motor to cool a little between bursts.

    Sort out your voltage and your problems may be solved and your windlass will love you If not, try a new breaker, but remember the combination of too big a breaker and low voltages may mean bye bye windlass

    Edit: Vic, tiny nomenclature point, remember breakers in this context are specced in amps (A) not watts (W).
    Last edited by dom; 20-07-19 at 09:05.

  5. #195
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Hi Vic, as I mentioned in post #101, there is more to breakers than simply cutting out a little above their rating; magnitude of excess, time of excess, temp, vibration etc., can all play a part. Your cb therefore may be fine or it may not - a simple multimeter test is not decisive and we don’t yet know Lofran’s spec.

    Secondly, there was a question above as to whether low voltage can burn out a motor. My advice remains that operating at a really quite-low 9.6V voltage may well damage your motor. Here’s why:

    Apply 12V to conventional lamps in a boat, switch on the engine, voltage pops to 14.5V and the lamps burn brighter and hotter while consuming more power. Lower the voltage and they will dim. To some extent the same applies to electric motors: lowering the voltage lowers the power consumption, all is good.

    Now imagine you are lifting your anchor up from the seabed and the voltage drops from 14V to 9.5V. The motor slows. When an electric motor’s coil spins in a magnetic field it creates a voltage acting in the opposite direction to the applied voltage, something known as the ‘back emf’. As the voltage is decreased the speed of the motor slows, reducing this back emf, which in turn allows more current to flow to provide the necessary power to lift the ground tackle. Every electric motor will have ‘torque vs. current’ and ‘torque vs. speed’ curves depicting these relationships. Here comes the rub, the heat produced in the coil is roughly proportional to the square of the amps and heat can now rise dangerously, exacerbated by the slowing motor’s cooling capacity being steadily reduced as its fins rotate more slowly through the air. Rotrax will tell you what happens to a stalled starter motor (with no safety cutouts) is left open circuit in a seized engine!

    The conclusion here is simple, ask Lofrans for the safe operating voltage range of your windlass and if this means running your engine while operating it, then run it. If it means being a bit light on dragging the boat forward with the windlass, then go light, or at least allow the motor to cool a little between bursts.

    Sort out your voltage and your problems may be solved and your windlass will love you If not, try a new breaker, but remember the combination of too big a breaker and low voltages may mean bye bye windlass

    Edit: Vic, tiny nomenclature point, remember breakers in this context are specced in amps (A) not watts (W).
    Don again no argument just clearing posting and I really do valve your input .
    Your referring to my posting in #158 where I did another test to see if very low voltage would cause the breaker to trip .
    Has this is what was being suggested.

    This test was done with NO ENGINE , anchor well set and about 12 kts of wind which kept the chain a bit tight .

    ....Please note , this is not the way we would normally use the windlass ....
    We always have the engine on , we always have at less 1000RPM and if there any tout on the chain we motor forward we also nearly alway breaker our anchor out under engine . ......


    In that account the voltages dropped to 9.8 v while the windlass was used constantly to haul in the chain and anchor ,

    I suspect with such low voltage the current at the motor was very hight , but still the breaker didn't trip , we know my breaker trip at 160A so the current couldn't had got that hight even which such low voltages .
    Please take a look at the YouTube clips , this was also done with 1000RPM with the engine on , has you see the voltage drop to 11.8v , this is more realistic to normally circumstances.

    If you can tell me how to reduce voltage drop please advise .
    Before you do take in account we have over size cable for the run .
    Most of the voltage drop is over switches . In the whole run I think I worked out 0.3v in the v+cable and 0.6 in the v- cable . All other drops are small drops over each switch .
    ( master breaker , wind lass breaker , solenoid)

    Edit
    The only way I can see of reducing voltage drop is put even more bigger cables , but even then the drops over the switchs would still be there , unless I wire the battery straight to the windlass and I think we all can agree that's not a good idea
    Very open to suggestion
    Last edited by sailaboutvic; 20-07-19 at 09:31.
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  6. #196
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    Don again no argument just clearing posting and I really do valve your input .
    Your referring to my posting in #158 where I did another test to see if very low voltage would cause the breaker to trip .
    Has this is what was being suggested.

    This test was done with NO ENGINE , anchor well set and about 12 kts of wind which kept the chain a bit tight .

    ....Please note , this is not the way we would normally use the windlass ....
    We always have the engine on , we always have at less 1000RPM and if there any tout on the chain we motor forward we also nearly alway breaker our anchor out under engine . ......


    In that account the voltages dropped to 9.8 v while the windlass was used constantly to haul in the chain and anchor ,

    I suspect with such low voltage the current at the motor was very hight , but still the breaker didn't trip , we know my breaker trip at 160A so the current couldn't had got that hight even which such low voltages .
    Please take a look at the YouTube clips , this was also done with 1000RPM with the engine on , has you see the voltage drop to 11.8v , this is more realistic to normally circumstances.

    If you can tell me how to reduce voltage drop please advise .
    Before you do take in account we have over size cable for the run .
    Most of the voltage drop is over switches . In the whole run I think I worked out 0.3v in the v+cable and 0.6 in the v- cable . All other drops are small drops over each switch .
    ( master breaker , wind lass breaker , solenoid)

    Edit
    The only way I can see of reducing voltage drop is put even more bigger cables , but even then the drops over the switchs would still be there , unless I wire the battery straight to the windlass and I think we all can agree that's not a good idea
    Very open to suggestion
    Okay, you say that you operate at 1000rpm, by which you may mean tick over? An alternator will usually kick in at a specific rpm level, often a tad above tick over. Use your multimeter to determine this point. If it turns out to be say 1100rpm and tick over is at say 700rpm, then all you have to do is press the neutral switch (or whatever) on your Morse Control to keep the alternator working even in neutral. If you haven’t tried this, I certainly would.

  7. #197
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Okay, you say that you operate at 1000rpm, by which you may mean tick over? An alternator will usually kick in at a specific rpm level, often a tad above tick over. Use your multimeter to determine this point. If it turns out to be say 1100rpm and tick over is at say 700rpm, then all you have to do is press the neutral switch (or whatever) on your Morse Control to keep the alternator working even in neutral. If you haven’t tried this, I certainly would.
    I have Don .
    as pointed out to Jonathan , test have been done at different RPM , funny enough with very little charge at the low voltage valve .
    This may mean some thing to you .
    To me it say what every RPM used the motor is still pulling it down to around that 11.8 v figure .
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  8. #198
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    I have Don .
    as pointed out to Jonathan , test have been done at different RPM , funny enough with very little charge at the low voltage valve .
    This may mean some thing to you .
    To me it say what every RPM used the motor is still pulling it down to around that 11.8 v figure .
    And you’ve had cutouts at that higher 11.8v level?

    Or do they primarily occur in the sub-10v region when the motor is slowing and amps start to rise to maintain the necessary torque?

  9. #199
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    9.8v is a low voltage and will effect the performance and power available from the windlass. Voltage drop at the battery is termed battery voltage sag rather than voltage drop (the latter is due to the resistance of the wiring connections etc). Both of these factors will reduce the available voltage at the windlass so using the correct terms is helpful.

    As normally the engine alternator will be operating, battery voltage sag is less of a concern with normal operation, but if your engine or alternator failed there will be not much power available from the windlass and this may present a problem, for example when retrieving the anchor and chain from a deep anchorage.

    If I understand correctly the windlass is supplied by your start battery.

    Dom has made an important point:

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    Okay, you say that you operate at 1000rpm, by which you may mean tick over? An alternator will usually kick in at a specific rpm level, often a tad above tick over. Use your multimeter to determine this point. If it turns out to be say 1100rpm and tick over is at say 700rpm, then all you have to do is press the neutral switch (or whatever) on your Morse Control to keep the alternator working even in neutral. If you havenít tried this, I certainly would.
    You need to make sure the alternator is producing power. On some alternators, especially high powered models, the RPM kick in point can be as high as 1400 RRM. The output in some cases is zero below this rev point. Some alternators work differently and will only start to output at reasonable RPMs (for example 1200-1400), but once this start point has been reached they will continue to output some current at a much lower RPM level, even down to idle.

    This latter type of behaviour in particular can produce an intermittent windlass problem where on some occasions a short burst of engine power has caused the alternator to start producing even at idle, but other times the excitation point is never reached and the windlass is dependent on the much lower battery voltage without assistance from the alternator.

    The above problems are more noticeable where the windlass is wired to the start battery rather than the house bank. Wiring the windlass to the start battery is done in some boats (our old boat was factory wired like this). It has some advantages and some drawbacks. Voltage sag when operating the windlass especially without the alternator contribution is one drawback. With this wiring configuration it is important the start battery can deliver plenty of current without too much voltage sag. AGM batteries are a good choice. It is also worth considering a larger than normal start battery or even start bank. Our old boat had a start bank of two large start batteries. More than was needed to start a 60hp diesel. This configuration solves the voltage sag issue.

    The other option with this configuration, is after starting the engine to link the house and start banks with a seperate battery switch before using the windlass. The battery switch also allows the house bank to start the engine if the start bank should fail.

  10. #200
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    Default Re: Anchor thread with a lesson

    I don't see the, any, advantage of wiring the windlass to the start battery (particularly if the start battery is small).

    I was under the distinct impression that the characteristics of the ideal engine start battery were, very, district from the house bank (and windlass).

    Jonathan

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