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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    113

    Default Re: Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellacruiser View Post
    One more question (maybe two! )

    Are brokers usually under exclusivity in the med (and specifically Croatia); i.e. if we see a boat listed with ABC Broker, and find them difficult to deal with, the seller won't really have an option to fire them and work through someone else?

    Secondly, what's reasonable to expect to see in terms of paperwork prior to offer? I've just fired off the below and will see where that gets us, not prepared to sign/pay anything otherwise (and tbh would rather not waste time even viewing if we can't get the answers) but not sure what the norm is?

    Many thanks for all your help so far; as we said, if the boat is not already sold/under offer we are keen to view in just over 3 weeks time on 7 September. You’ve been very helpful with our questions on the technical specification and condition of the boat, but to avoid a wasted trip to view the boat we’d appreciate the following information:

    1. How long has the current owner had the boat?
    2. If not since new, what is its previous ownership history?
    3. What was its date of first registration? Has it always held Croatian flag?
    4. What proof of ownership paperwork is there?/previous Bill of Sale etc
    5. Are CE certificates available?/Proof of seaworthiness/Certificate of Conformity
    6. What has its typical annual usage been? (you mentioned it is used privately with some charter)
    7. Is the boat subject to any mortgage or finance?
    8. Boat is listed as VAT paid:
     Was this paid in Croatia?
     Was this paid at 5% or 25%? E.g. around the time of Croatia joining EU
     Or was boat deemed exempt (0%) as 8+ years old/registered and in Croatia at 31/7/2013?
     What proof/evidence of VAT status is there?
    9. What charter companies has she been managed by? (+years)
    10. What evidence is there of service history, maintenance logs, receipts etc
    11. Which marina is the boat located in currently?
    12. Can you confirm price includes broker commission?

    For documents on ownership etc, if any can be shared before viewing (over email) or at a viewing that would be helpful, but in any event we would wish to inspect these before any payment etc. If we could inspect sooner this would help us make any decision to purchase much quicker, and to note for your seller that we are cash buyers and will not need to arrange any financing/mortgage etc.

    I look forward to hearing from you and thank you again for all your help so far


    Well this is all getting confusing; the broker is very quick to reply and I don't get a sense that there is any obfuscation but at the same time I am still a little confused on the VAT status/documentation:

    1. He is the first owner since new.
    2. It has been always under Croatian flag. First registration was in 2005.
    3. There is a registration document where you can see who the owner is. Also, Croatian yacht registry is national, which means that any lien or mortgage in order to exist, has to be registered at the harbour master. So we can check the title of any boat without any problem and also the ownership.
    4. Yes, the boat has all necessary certificates.
    5. It is beeing used between 7 and 10 weeks per season.
    6. The same answer like numer 3. In any case this is checked prior to any payment.
    7. VAT has been paid in Croatia, when the owner has bought the boat. VAT is 25% in Croatia. In order to regiter the boat on a physical person in EU, by the law, VAT has to be paid. It would not be able to register it in any other way, so this is the proof that VAT is paid. But, in case of a purchase, you will make T2L document. This is international docuement issued by the customs and it proves VAT is paid. We can help you to make it and the cost is 250 euro. Since the boat is issued by the customs, they will not be able to make it, unless it is paid.
    8. Charter company has been taking care of the boat through all these years and they have some evidence of the things that have been done. They don`t have all, but they can show you what they have. Also, you can see boats documents during the visit.


    I have replied thus:

    I do have some further questions on VAT and this is a very important point for us (and the VAT status of this boat does make it attractive).

    Can you confirm what proof/documentation the current owner of the boat has of its VAT paid status? Guidance from the Carinska Uprava that we have been advised of states:

    “The owner or captain of the vessel is obligated, at the request of a customs official, present evidence that customs duty and/or VAT has been paid in one of the EU member states for the vessel (evidence may include: T2L documents, original copy of the invoice with the stated VAT, certificate issued by a tax authority or other available document proving that VAT has been paid in one of the EU member states). NOTE: certificate of registration in one of the EU member states and the EU flag of a EU member state are not evidence that the vessel has a Community status without the aforementioned evidence.”

    Does the seller have such certificate or sales invoice showing VAT paid status? We understand that we could obtain our own T2L but to do so would need to produce evidence.


    Am I missing something here? They do need the bill of sale or something showing that VAT had been paid...? The above came from https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...%20(2)-eng.pdf regarding what Croatia expects/expected of yachts (perhaps from other territories). Maybe they are happy to trust their own registry and indeed the late Jim B says of VAT "Proof of VAT Payment (within EU) - "T2L"
    HMRC advise that leisure boats within the EU should carry proof that VAT has been paid. Most European registries record VAT status and therefore don't ask for proof of VAT payment for EU registered boats."

    I'm just determined that we don't bust our guts to see this boat, get our hopes up and then find something smells off. We're keen as it's low use, recently had some decent upgrades and VAT paid but priced at pretty much the same as others ex-VAT. Maybe too good to be true? If this doesn't pan out we'll wait for Brexit certainty and maybe not pay VAT if the outcome supports that...
    Last edited by Bellacruiser; 13-08-19 at 13:17.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    113

    Default Re: Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

    The plot thickens:

    The owner should have the first invoice when he bought the boat. Acutally he bought the boat first on the name of his company, that was not in VAT system. After some time, he bought the boat from his company and put it on his name. He has the invoice when he bought the boat from his company, but it doesn`t say there that VAT is paid. He will look for the first invoice and let me know. I understand that you want o see the written proof and that is fine. You just want to make sure that everything is ok. But, as explained in my previous email, it would not be possible to register the boat on a physical person without paying VAT.



    This is all very odd...we'll see what else comes up but I am tempted to tell them to get the owner to get a T2L, if issued we will view (and happily reimburse their €250 if we purchase the boat!)
    Last edited by Bellacruiser; 13-08-19 at 13:25.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Woolverstone (soon to be heading Medwards again)
    Posts
    143

    Default Re: Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

    No idea about Croatian vat but can second the recommendation for Colin at pinnacle yachts. I bought my boat through him. He is super tight on documentation. In fact, the vendor claimed evidence of vat paid but when we requested it it wasnít forthcoming. Colin advised that we should hold out for the documents. In the end we bought the boat (discounted by 22pc for the vat), promising to pay the vat after if the evidence arrived. It didnít. Itís never been an issue. (But then I havenít exported it and reimported it since).

    After buying it, Colin came and gave us a couple of hours help figuring out the best way to park her (she has an autoprop which takes a bit of getting used to). Thoroughly good egg.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

    Thank you. Hoping to meet him end of September. We are heading to Lefkas and Corfu.

    Really appreciate your comments re the proof of VAT paid - good recommendation from Colin.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Back where I belong... Corfu
    Posts
    538

    Default Re: Broker advice in Greece and Croatia - help please

    +1 for Colin an Pinnacle Yachts.

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