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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    37,288

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    Yes, well if you only use 40 litres in a year.
    Seems to me that so-called sailing yachts and their owners have evolved into a mode of using a lot of diesel. Back in the old days, people used a lot less in smaller boats with smaller engines which were used less as a default and more as a backup.
    It makes no odds whether it's 40 litres a year, or as with our RIB at peak times, closer to 40 litres a day being bought from a garage.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,183

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by bikedaft View Post
    It's not about the money - red diesel has no biodiesel in it .
    Not neccesarily ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bikedaft View Post
    Well i do ask the supplier every time i buy it and they say no FAME.
    ... unless it is FAME free.

    Otherwise it almost certainly has FAME in it because it will often be the same basic low sulphur diesel oil but with the marker and without all the additives (anti-foaming agents, detergents etc.) as forecourt "white" diesel (although this can vary depending on the wholesaler who supplies the retailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by alan_d View Post
    ... it is unlikely to be economical for them to install additional pumps and tanks to supply white diesel to a small number of leisure customers.
    A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel)

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    On the Celtic Fringe
    Posts
    14,162

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by NormanS View Post
    Yes, well if you only use 40 litres in a year.
    Well that is current consumption. I'll let you know what it is in 2022 with a circumnavigation of the British Isles, with a slight diversion to the Faroe Islands, planned.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Central Scotland
    Posts
    2,340

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    "A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel) "

    But there's a bit more work than that. It must be a bunded tank, the hose needs running down a pontoon to somewhere accessible to the boats, power supply to arrange etc. Perhaps we could say £4k total?
    Now what's the margin on this fuel? Perhaps 5p/litre.? So at 5p/litre, need to sell 80,000 litres to break even. Typical boat tank perhaps 80 litres? So 1000 boats filled from empty, or 2000 boats half filled. That's about 10 boats a day for the summer.
    All sounds a bit thin to me - not that attractive an investment.
    Geoff. C.: Galvanizing and anchor manufacturing.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Medway
    Posts
    19,748

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    highly unlikely that a cash strapped Treasury is going wave good bye to any possibilty of a little extra income ?

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Winter in Falmouth, summer on board Rampage.
    Posts
    5,126

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    First off, white diesel doesn’t kill engines. Throughout the rest of the world, diesel is supplied to boats that is identical to that supplied to the road petrol station network. In Greece for example, most town quays have a mini tanker which delivers fuel to boats that has been drawn from the local petrol station’s tanks. The same tankers also deliver diesel as heating oil to local houses.
    It’s going to be a significant change for many shoreside fuel suppliers, especially those who supply mainly commercial customers. Many will have a second tank which can be flushed through and use for white diesel but there will be many who don’t and will have to take a commercial decision based on how much white diesel they expect to sell. If they’re only flogging a few hundred litres a year, then don’t expect them to invest money in a second tank and pump.
    For most sailing boat people, it’s not really going to be much of a show stopper. I currently use about 400-500 litres a year but the thought of lugging diesel to the boat in jerrycans doesn’t worry me much: a couple of cans a visit won’t break my back and will more than keep pace with the expected usage. Just have to plan storage space for couple more cans on long trips so I can refuel from roadside stations when needed.
    This is going to have more of an effect on motor boats using tens of litres per hour than it is on sailing boats, which even under motor use a small fraction of that sort of figure. However, fuel wholesalers with small tankers may well be able to fill this niche: where it wouldn’t be worth while sending a tanker to a quay side to sell a few tens of litres to a yacht, sending the same tanker to meet a motor boat wanting a few hundred litres is a much more doable proposition.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    On the Celtic Fringe
    Posts
    14,162

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by MartynG View Post
    Does the engine run better on white diesel?
    Do you get better fuel economy ?
    Difficult to say about fuel economy as my use is very small.

    She does run smoother once warmed up. Recently I had to motor sailed from Plymouth to Falmouth with very light winds on the nose. She is quieter and less smokey than I've seen in the past.

    I am convinced the the bug problem I had was because of low turn over of red at the garage that I bought it from. Since then the whole fuel system has been steam cleaned or replaced up to the primary filter.

    I work with several amazing mechanics who work on a lot of plant machinery ranging from small engines to huge ones and they all say put the best fuel you can afford from a reliable source into your tank.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    1,057

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Can anyone really justify taxing diesel for a leisure yacht less than diesel for someone to drive a car to work?

    At present we are still in the EU. If/when we leave, we are likely to be in some sort of transition for a few years, and after that, who knows? Maybe some sort of formal alignment of rules, but even without that, rules are tending to converge between neighbouring states.

    I think it's a done deal and no good will come from resisting.
    We've had plenty of warning, the transitional system has been abused by people claiming to use lots of fuel for heating, the current position is heavy on paperwork.
    like button
    this has been on the cards for years & has been fudged by hmrc & the rya

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    6,856

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Most yotties in Scotland presumably drive cars fuelled by white fuel?
    Maybe people will go back to treating engines as auxillary to the sails and only use quantities of fuel which can reasonably be bought in cans? I'm sure where there's a need there will be an entrepreneurial Scot offering the goods, and a stereotype scot moaning about the price.
    It seems that Ireland is going the same way, no green diesel after January 2020?
    Yes, I drive a car in Scotland. So what? I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
    What does that have to do with the nonavailability of white diesel at the quayside?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    5,308

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    October last year


    I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.

    Good morning Karl

    Thank you for your enquiry.

    We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.

    We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
    Kind regards



    Robert Brown.



    Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
    Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...SRi9jjZ9gBH.99
    Pardon?

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