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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Medway, UK, boat in SYH
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    2,366

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles Wader View Post
    Bingo! Why don't we just bin dyed fuel and make all fuel duty payable on purchase? Those concerns that are eligible for duty free concessions can then apply for refund of duty which should not be a problem in the modern age. Lets face it some reckon we can operate the NI border by technology so this will be child's play. Yes there will be fraud just as there is now but it would require active applications for refunds rather than passive use of red fuel and there would be a clear "paper trail" for HMRC to follow. Seems like a win to me.
    the only 'legal' argument I can see is one of cashflow - you have to give a tidy sum to the Govt and then wait a while to get it back again.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    London
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    6,383

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by RivalRedwing View Post
    the only 'legal' argument I can see is one of cashflow - you have to give a tidy sum to the Govt and then wait a while to get it back again.
    That's true but technology should mean the delays would be minimal and ultimately worth it to sort out this archaic nonsense.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Scotland.
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    14,270

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bru View Post
    Except that it IS NOT CRAP

    What underground storage tanks?

    What "staff costs"?

    What "H&S" issues?

    They're already dispensing diesel for crying out loud!

    You don't NEED to stick it on a pontoon

    The diesel tank at Fambridge is EXACTLY the sort of self contained bunded tank I am talking about. It's on the bank with a hose run to the fuel berth hose reel.

    These things are in widespread use all over the place from marinas to farms to plant hire yards to ... well anywhere where a drop it on the ground and meet the regulations supply of fuel is needed.

    Bluntly, he was just reciting the list of pathetic bleating excuses the industry has been trotting out for over a decade as to why the UK is incapable of doing something the rest of Europe (bar Ireland) had no bloody difficulty doing at all

    Oh for sure, the self contained bunded tank isn't going to be the ideal solution in high volume locations but then operators who sell large columes of diesel will be proportionally just as able to amortise the cost of providing unmarked fuel

    Just watch how quickly the industry changes it's tune when they HAVE to start supplying unmarked fuel!
    +1, same at Kip and Craobh marina, the two I have used recently, surface tanks, pipe and hose runs, dispensing unit; very simple installations. Also, I think most marinas will just run down the marked fuel, maybe clean out the tanks and fill with white, even less cost!
    "'...contradictions .... are deliberate exercises in doublethink." Orwell from 1984

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    12,267

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by duncan99210 View Post
    I think you’re missing the point. For those places where there is a significant demand for white fuel (say in excess of 50% of their business) it’ll be worthwhile investing in tankage and dispensing equipment to cover both white and red diesel.
    For those existing places which currently sell red diesel primarily to commercial vessels with a side line selling to pleasure boats, the chances are that it won’t be worth their while investing in a second set of dispensing kit to sell white diesel. Whether you like it or not, there are environmental control regulations in place which will mean that you can’t simply place a second set of gear into an existing location. You’ll need permissions and licences, none of which come cheap, so the cost benefit analysis will tend toward the “I can’t be bothered” and of the spectrum rather than “coo, I could make some more money” end.
    Final point. Any dispensing pumps will need to be certifiable by the local trading standards folks and HMRC, as they’re retail vending kit. I’m not sure that the dispensing kit supplied with the bunded tanks being quoted here will meet those levels of accuracy, thus adding further to the costs involved.
    If they'rre selling red diesel they already have the permissions and licences necessary to sell white. And/or both. No additional permissions are needed*. Not an issue

    The meters on the bunded tanks I have referenced are to the relevant standards. They already have to meet those standards on their existing kit. Not an issue

    I haven't missed the point about isolated locations in remote areas, that's aan issue which does need addressing. It's not an excuse applicable to the bulk of the marine industry

    * Large fixed installations could potentially need planning permission but we're not talking that scale of installation.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Argyll
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    6,331

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Surely the point is that for a marina such as where Boots keeps his boat it is not a problem, they have plenty of customers and a near by source of supply. Go further North or West where there are no marinas, just fishing harbours with some provision for pleasure boats it is not practical to have a separate supply. The cheap 1or 2 thousand litre tank wil not hold enough for an economic delivery from the other side of Scotland and a big tank will not sell enough to justify regular full tanker loads. The idea of a road tanker coming to the quay to sell 50 litres is equally daft. Flowerdale has two visitor pontoon berths, sometimes up to four visiting boats, the next nearest supply on the quay is Kyle to the South or Lochinver to the North, the number of visiting boats and residents is miniscule compared to Croabh or Ardfern. The provision is even less along the outer isles but these are the places some of us want to go. You are ignoring the logistic problems in supplying separate fuel to these places, the easy solution is to allow them to sell us the red diesel that is in the tanks they have, just adjust the price to include the tax.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    12,267

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    Surely the point is that for a marina such as where Boots keeps his boat it is not a problem, they have plenty of customers and a near by source of supply. Go further North or West where there are no marinas, just fishing harbours with some provision for pleasure boats it is not practical to have a separate supply. The cheap 1or 2 thousand litre tank wil not hold enough for an economic delivery from the other side of Scotland and a big tank will not sell enough to justify regular full tanker loads. The idea of a road tanker coming to the quay to sell 50 litres is equally daft. Flowerdale has two visitor pontoon berths, sometimes up to four visiting boats, the next nearest supply on the quay is Kyle to the South or Lochinver to the North, the number of visiting boats and residents is miniscule compared to Croabh or Ardfern. The provision is even less along the outer isles but these are the places some of us want to go. You are ignoring the logistic problems in supplying separate fuel to these places, the easy solution is to allow them to sell us the red diesel that is in the tanks they have, just adjust the price to include the tax.
    I'm not ignoring the problem as such, it IS a problem. However it is a localised problem confined to one remote area of the UK. Rather than deal with that localised problem (and the equally "localised" problem of continously cruising boats on the inland waterways and their mixed use of fuel) the WHOLE of the UK has been on the wrong side of the law for a very long time

    MY localised problem is that without a reliable and accessible supply of unmarked diesel I can't, other than at equally great inconvenience, continue to cruise to the near continent once the patience of their authorities finally runs out (which it will very soon)

    And I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that it would be uneconomic to supply unmarked diesel to remoter parts of Scotland anyway. How do people in Lochinver (to pick a location that was mentioned earlier in the thread) get heating oil? Highland Fuels have depots in Ullapool, Stornoway, Inverness, Oban and even Kirkwall

    Plus, if there's a garage nearby receiving deliveries of DERV by multi-cell tanker (and all the larger tankers are multi-compartment) then a split load is a routine matter

    Hells bells, there's even 4x4 pickup truck micro-tankers carrying getting on for 1000l with metered pump and a long hose. Some enterprising Scot could make perhaps make a tidy living out of that!

    The bottom line is that we've waffled and prevaricated ourselves to a dead end instead of finding solutions to the problems. Now we've got no choice but to find answers, it's no good saying "this can't happen, this won't work" because it IS happening and it's got to be made to work

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    South Coast
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    5,165

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Can anyone really justify taxing diesel for a leisure yacht less than diesel for someone to drive a car to work?

    At present we are still in the EU. If/when we leave, we are likely to be in some sort of transition for a few years, and after that, who knows? Maybe some sort of formal alignment of rules, but even without that, rules are tending to converge between neighbouring states.

    I think it's a done deal and no good will come from resisting.
    We've had plenty of warning, the transitional system has been abused by people claiming to use lots of fuel for heating, the current position is heavy on paperwork.
    Are you a tax man - you seem hell bent on paying something that, in my view, is simply illegitimate.

    After all this is same HMRC who prevent a private citizen driving to France and buying beer to sell to his mates, but at the same allows Tesco et al to do just that.

    When road vehicles were taxed on the diesel fuel they used it was known as DERV - Diesel Engine Road Vehicle. Well my boat is not a road vehicle. That the Dictatorship across the channel insists we should do this (for now at least) is another subject entirely.
    Interested in Corvettes PM me for details of the Corvette Motorboat Association

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    I know how fast I'm going, but not where I am
    Posts
    6,953

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bru View Post
    I'm not ignoring the problem as such, it IS a problem. However it is a localised problem confined to one remote area of the UK. Rather than deal with that localised problem (and the equally "localised" problem of continously cruising boats on the inland waterways and their mixed use of fuel) the WHOLE of the UK has been on the wrong side of the law for a very long time

    MY localised problem is that without a reliable and accessible supply of unmarked diesel I can't, other than at equally great inconvenience, continue to cruise to the near continent once the patience of their authorities finally runs out (which it will very soon)

    And I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that it would be uneconomic to supply unmarked diesel to remoter parts of Scotland anyway. How do people in Lochinver (to pick a location that was mentioned earlier in the thread) get heating oil? Highland Fuels have depots in Ullapool, Stornoway, Inverness, Oban and even Kirkwall

    Plus, if there's a garage nearby receiving deliveries of DERV by multi-cell tanker (and all the larger tankers are multi-compartment) then a split load is a routine matter

    Hells bells, there's even 4x4 pickup truck micro-tankers carrying getting on for 1000l with metered pump and a long hose. Some enterprising Scot could make perhaps make a tidy living out of that!

    The bottom line is that we've waffled and prevaricated ourselves to a dead end instead of finding solutions to the problems. Now we've got no choice but to find answers, it's no good saying "this can't happen, this won't work" because it IS happening and it's got to be made to work
    There's no problem getting white diesel in Lochinver (or any of the Highland harbours). There's a petrol station nearby & the council have their own white diesel tanks & dispensing equipment for council vehicles, which is also in the harbour, but not at the waterside. However, it's not a marina, it's a fishing harbour with a few pontoons. Speaking to the harbours' office today they don't have the budget or sales to justify installing separate equipment for the realitively tiny amounts of fuel supplied to leisure boats in their harbours, so won't be installing equipment to do it in Lochinver or anywhere else, even if it is only £2k per site to do so. Someone else might come up with a solution, but the council won't be. Informally they assist people to get fuel from the petrol station for those who need petrol, & that's just the way it is likely to be. An inconvenience to sailing boats, more of a problem for mobos.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,715

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by superheat6k View Post
    Are you a tax man - you seem hell bent on paying something that, in my view, is simply illegitimate.

    After all this is same HMRC who prevent a private citizen driving to France and buying beer to sell to his mates, but at the same allows Tesco et al to do just that.

    When road vehicles were taxed on the diesel fuel they used it was known as DERV - Diesel Engine Road Vehicle. Well my boat is not a road vehicle. That the Dictatorship across the channel insists we should do this (for now at least) is another subject entirely.
    The time for arguing the principle is long past.
    No coherent argument has been made and a decision was taken.
    Now we are just late in the game of sorting an implementation, having frittered away the generous notice period.
    IF people just witter on about 'it's not a road vehicle', then they will detract from efforts to sort out a workable transition.

    Personally I sail on two boats, the one we take to France from time to time had been on white for a couple of years. It's convenient and we tend to use the sails mostly.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,267

    Default Re: HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by AngusMcDoon View Post
    There's no problem getting white diesel in Lochinver (or any of the Highland harbours). There's a petrol station nearby & the council have their own white diesel tanks & dispensing equipment for council vehicles, which is also in the harbour, but not at the waterside. However, it's not a marina, it's a fishing harbour with a few pontoons. Speaking to the harbours' office today they don't have the budget or sales to justify installing separate equipment for the realitively tiny amounts of fuel supplied to leisure boats in their harbours, so won't be installing equipment to do it in Lochinver or anywhere else, even if it is only £2k per site to do so. Someone else might come up with a solution, but the council won't be. Informally they assist people to get fuel from the petrol station for those who need petrol, & that's just the way it is likely to be. An inconvenience to sailing boats, more of a problem for mobos.
    So if the annual sales of diesel to pleasure boats are so small at that location, with respect, it's hardly a show stopping problem that thousands of East and South coast boat owners should have to put up with for the sake of a handful of Scottish West Coast cruisers (and I'm not dismissing the problem - the Cunning Retirement Plan has us spending two years in Scottish waters, at least)

    If it's a financial issue then perhaps some form of aid should be forthcoming from one or more agencies

    As lw395 dsaid, it's too late, years too late, to be arguing about whether or not we should comply with the relevant directives, that game is over. The issue now is the how we go about complying with them and deal with any problems, such as this, which arise

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