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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    Medway
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    19,746

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Old news .Covered on our local TV regional news months ago.Owner of vessel was on TV and expressing his disappointment that his passenger carrying commercial vessel was having to meet current safety regulations regards bulkheads and stuff, main whinge was too expensive.
    Still nothing like dredging up an old story and encouraging a bit more outraged indignation.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Devon
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    289

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    The trouble with all of these things is that disasters *do* happen for a variety of reasons. And when they do there is loss of life. We value life and therefore the government pass legislation to make vessels safer. Off the top of my head I can think of three river boat disasters resulting in loss of life. None were (as far as I am aware) 'classic' vessels, but that doesn't really matter does it?

    And anyway I suspect that its only us lot who care about the old vessels really. Most day trippers just want a day out on the water I expect - they probably don't care whether the boat was built in the 19th century or the 21st.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Second Coast, Ross-shire, overlooking Gruinard Bay.
    Posts
    7,220

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by oldgit View Post
    Old news .Covered on our local TV regional news months ago.
    Still nothing like dredging up an old story and encouraging a bit more outraged indignation.
    Well Sir, you have the advantage over me as I do not watch the particular TV channel to which you refer.

    As I posted (above somewhere) it was on BBC Breakfast this morning and therefore new "News" to me.
    But thank you for pointing out that the matter has been previously aired.

    Yours,
    Indignantly outraged
    Kay Sarah Sarah
    57°51.42' N 5°29.44' W

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Where life is good
    Posts
    13,711

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Balbas View Post
    The trouble with all of these things is that disasters *do* happen for a variety of reasons. And when they do there is loss of life. We value life and therefore the government pass legislation to make vessels safer. Off the top of my head I can think of three river boat disasters resulting in loss of life. None were (as far as I am aware) 'classic' vessels, but that doesn't really matter does it?

    And anyway I suspect that its only us lot who care about the old vessels really. Most day trippers just want a day out on the water I expect - they probably don't care whether the boat was built in the 19th century or the 21st.
    The Marchoness,
    The Halbony

    Both run down by larger vessels in confined waters
    I very much doubt that any stability calcs have any bearing when being rammed?
    Life is too short to drink bad wine.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Devon
    Posts
    289

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk View Post
    The Marchoness,
    The Halbony

    Both run down by larger vessels in confined waters
    I very much doubt that any stability calcs have any bearing when being rammed?
    Dunno. Didn't that one on the Danube a month or so back capsize after being rammed? No idea if that was due to inherent stability problems or not - I didn't really pay much attention and that's certainly not my area of expertise anyway*.

    *nothing related to boats is - except incompetence, I'm good at that.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,353

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Balbas View Post
    Dunno. Didn't that one on the Danube a month or so back capsize after being rammed? No idea if that was due to inherent stability problems or not - I didn't really pay much attention and that's certainly not my area of expertise anyway*.

    *nothing related to boats is - except incompetence, I'm good at that.
    It is slightly in mine, though. It looks very much like an interaction case. The stability may have been perfect but the smaller vessel would still have been drawn into and under the larger overtaking vessel. The interaction effects will have been accentuated by the bridge piers.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Devon
    Posts
    289

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    It is slightly in mine, though. It looks very much like an interaction case. The stability may have been perfect but the smaller vessel would still have been drawn into and under the larger overtaking vessel. The interaction effects will have been accentuated by the bridge piers.
    So - for clarity - you're saying that regardless of stability, the smaller vessel was always at risk of capsize? I must admit I don't remember much about the incident and just remember a search for bodies, so I've added 2+2 and probably got to 657 by assuming a capsize.

    In which case surely the more sensible thing to do would be to separate classes of boats - have a TSS in effect I suppose?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,353

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Yes, in the specific circumstances of an interaction event, when rather large hydrodynamic forces are involved, we are looking at dynamic stability rather than static stability. I have known a conventional harbour tug, a class of vessel built with great reserves of stability, to be rolled under by the merchant ship she was assisting.

    I think the enquiry is likely to find that the overtaking vessel was at fault for attempting to overtake whilst passing under a bridge. I’m afraid that I don’t know the Danube collision regulations
    Last edited by Minn; 18-07-19 at 12:31.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Devon
    Posts
    289

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Minn View Post
    Yes, in the specific circumstances of an interaction event, when rather large hydrodynamic forces are involved, we are looking at dynamic stability rather than static stability. I have known a conventional harbour tug, a class of vessel built with great reserves of stability, to be rolled under by the merchant ship she was assisting.
    Thanks for clarifying in language of one syllables. Every day is a school day.

    In which case it would *seem* that collision avoidance / prevention should be a higher priority than 'static' stability.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
    Posts
    20,429

    Default Re: Hitler couldn't "sink" it, but the MCA will

    Quote Originally Posted by Balbas View Post
    So - for clarity - you're saying that regardless of stability, the smaller vessel was always at risk of capsize? I must admit I don't remember much about the incident and just remember a search for bodies, so I've added 2+2 and probably got to 657 by assuming a capsize.

    In which case surely the more sensible thing to do would be to separate classes of boats - have a TSS in effect I suppose?
    Here is a clip from an incident some years ago between an RNR minesweeper, HMS Fittleton and the frigate HMS Mermaid. Lots of 'lessons learned'.

    Fittleton was caught in a low pressure area that exists near to the hull of a ship under way and was drawn close to the frigate HMS Mermaid by hydrodynamic forces. A minor collision ensued and the Fittleton moved forward to try and exit the situation but instead was hit amidships by the bow of the much larger Mermaid and turned over within a minute. Thirty-two survivors were picked from the sea and the upturned hull by the accompanying ships,[1] and German and Dutch vessels joined Royal Navy ships in searching for survivors, with divers entering the floating upturned hull. Attempts to keep Fittleton afloat by passing minesweeping cables underneath her propellor shafts failed when the lines parted.[1] The ship sank several hours later, between 9 and 10 pm, in 160 feet (49 m) of water.[1]

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