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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,498

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    I don't think we need treat chain as a consumable. Yes it might need replaced in 10 or 20 years but not in 2 or 3 'seasons'. Complaints on chain have been fairly consistent over a decade and have all been of one supplier. It has nothing to do with G70 as the complaints have also been directed at G40. I don't recall owners of other chain, predominately now from China, even making a murmur of complaint over the life of gal.

    Interestingly most people who have their chain re-galled - all, or mostly, consistently say the new gal, the second gal, is better than the first. Maybe galvanisers take special care for these non-standard orders. I vaguely recall that Vyv had his G40 chain regalled in the UK (he must have brought it back by car) - but maybe I have this wrong.

    So one lesson to be learnt - be careful who made your chain and take note of thread history.

    Galvanising determines the life of chain and more of it, within limits, will give longer life. Too thick a coating and the coating inevitably flakes off. Vyv has a cheap and cheerful way of testing gal adhesion - do it!

    Most chain makers sub-contracts their galvanising (Peerless are an exception and many Chinese chain makers gal in house). Subcontract galvanisers usually coat engineering products that are not subject to abrasion and the demands are different than for chain. If you have your chain galvanised you really need to emphasise to the galvaniser you want a really clean substrate (or the alloying will be compromised) and a coating a 'bit' thicker than he would normally achieve for his run of the mill production. Most engineering products are coated to a 70 micron thickness - chain really needs to be 100-120 microns. gal thickness is directly related to life. Life is also related to how the owners looks after their chain, if you don't wash the mud off - expect a shorter life - simple stuff.

    Here in Oz many galvanisers coat chain, the 2 chain makers use subcontract galvanisers. You do not need special equipment and I know galvanisers here appreciate the issues and 'shake' to ensure the chain does not arrive with you in one lump. This is a bit difficult if you do not speak the language - but I manage with my broad Scots even to those who only know a broad Ozzy twang

    This leads to another issue - if you are located somewhere pristine and gorgeous - don't expect a galvaniser to be lurking round a corner. They tend to be focussed in the industrial heartland and the big cities. We have galvanisers in Melbourne, Sydney/Newcastle, Brisbane and Bundaberg - all of whom coat chain and all of whom could process you chain within a week. Each of these locations is about 400nm apart - and there is nothing in-between. It is better if you speak to them.

    As mentioned - most, all, galvanisers are members of a country based association and, in Europe, a European association. Check with Google - and you will find a list of galvanisers. If you do not speak the language - go someplace where they do - the Med is not that big (or fir its actually not that important to you - buy new chain).

    Maggi's chain is clearly marked A4 or A7 - most Chinese chain is unmarked. Lofrans chain is marked, I don't recall the marks. Peerless chain is all marked - with a variety of marks - but it is marked. CMP chain is clearly marked (it should be available from chandlers selling Rocna anchors - contact CMP in Canada - ask for the nearest stockist (its historically been good quality). Chinese chain quality, including galvanising, has been of an acceptable quality - but there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of chain makers in China and with current contretemps on international trade they are all looking for 'new' markets - buy from a reputable importer and possibly pay a bit more than the bargain on eBay.

    Note - Gal is something of an art - some, in fact one only, companies are consistently bad, some generate no complaints, but they all must have off days - and there are no specifications (which is partially our fault - we (and the media) should be more demanding).

    Jonathan

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North Wales, sailing Aegean Sea or Menai Strait
    Posts
    21,975

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by Yngmar View Post
    Got a response from Matt (Licata). He says he only knows it to be done properly in North Italy and that's only viable if a group of people get together. Would have to see when we get to Licata if there is enough interest.

    I don't like the idea of disposable chain but it looks like Vic might be right about that.

    Looked up some prices for replacement chain meanwhile (right-click and View Image to enlarge):



    The Stefanou Marine one is tempting, if it's still the same one JFowler got, it wouldn't be a big detour for us. No load rating though, might be good or might be pudding!

    The FNI (yachtshop.eu) one is reasonable, but no idea who makes it - might be Maggi. Cheaper than from Maggi direct, but that doesn't surprise me (and Maggi's online shop is broken and when you add it to the cart the quote goes to 10x).

    Local chandleries usually struggle to beat the yachtshop.eu prices.
    Stefanou are pretty good although I have no experience of their chain. It is worthwhile looking at Pavlou Bros in Poros, an excellent chandler. They were doing Maggi chain and some tested Chinese made, which may well be a better choice.

    If you are thinking of stainless, I priced Cromox recently and seem to remember it was a good deal cheaper than your offers.
    Answers to some technical queries at new website http://coxeng.co.uk

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Gone cruising
    Posts
    2,395

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by vyv_cox View Post
    Stefanou are pretty good although I have no experience of their chain. It is worthwhile looking at Pavlou Bros in Poros, an excellent chandler. They were doing Maggi chain and some tested Chinese made, which may well be a better choice.

    If you are thinking of stainless, I priced Cromox recently and seem to remember it was a good deal cheaper than your offers.
    Thanks, we're one hop from Poros, so will check it out soon.

    I did look at Cromox (Ketten Wälder). They have three types of stainless chain (all DIN 766 8mm):

    "Prenice 23", 1.4404 (AISI 316L), 6300 kgf BL, €22.90 + VAT per meter

    "Prenium 35", 1.4462 Duplex (AISI 318LN), 6600 kgf BL, €29.90 + VAT per meter

    "Suprene 40", 1.4507 Superduplex (A182 F61)* electropolished, 6600 kgf BL, €53.00 + VAT per meter

    * I have no idea what Superduplex steel is, but I can't afford it anyways

    I have some idea what duplex steel is, our rudder stock being made of it. It's from 2001 and has zero corrosion on it. Therefore must be great stuff. On the other hand, the stainless shackle and Kong swivel on our anchor also have zero signs of corrosion on them and have been down there as long as the chain has, and typically buried in mud or sand, so perhaps 316L is completely sufficient for anchor chain.

    But even the cheapest stainless chain costs 3.5 times as much as the FNI galvanized chain, so it would have to last over 10 years to make any sense at all. Having less piling in the anchor locker would be nice, but not worth such a significant investment. If it ever gets knotted around a rock and has to be abandoned again, I'll have to hire armed guards! I don't think I'll go for stainless chain, but it was interesting enough to look it up and compare.

    The Rocna wiki has a good summary on stainless chain that cleared up some misunderstandings I had: http://kb.rocna.com/kb/Chain#Stainless

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,498

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    I am sure Duplex stainless would last the 10 years you have set as being cost effective. I'm also sure 316 stainless would last as well. It, 316/duplex, would store better in your locker, less towering, will carry less mud and be easier to clean. Your fears of losing some on some underwater obstruction will, obviously, remain.

    I would not use 316 stainless. It has a very low yield and though ultimate strength appears adequate - extension to break, before actual failure, will be large and will occur at a lower tension than a G30 chain. Much stainless is currently coming out of China and is described as 316 (which it might be) but the last batch I tested, which was cheap and looked beautiful, stretched spectacturally - but met 316 specification for strength.

    I'd stick with galvanised chain, its not perfect - but you know roughly what to expect and will commit to the purchase with your eyes open. If I were given a big bag of money and was forced to spend it on chain - I'd stick to Cromox. However if I had stainless chain I'd want a matching stainless windlass and anchor (so the bag of money would need to be quite large).

    Jonathan

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,498

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Yngmar,

    I don't remember the key details of your rode. Normally people who invest in G70 do so to save weight which then means they down size, from say 10mm to 8mm. If you have done this then you will have a smaller gypsy - this means that unless you buy a new gypsy (and go back up a size) you are locked into buying that self same chain size (say 8mm) and this then means that if you buy G40 or G30 chain - it will be understrength, or marginal.

    Buying a new gypsy is, usually, easy - except they cost a fortune (but maybe you kept the old one when you downsized for the G70).

    If you are going to go the new chain, new gypsy, route then the cost per metre for the new G30/40 chain is only part of the equation - and Cromox G60 or Peerless G70 might start to look a more interesting option.

    The cheapest option is to find the nearest sympathetic galvaniser - in the Med - and go there. Or, wait till you over winter in a marina, stick it on a truck and send to Highland Galanisers.

    Jonathan

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North Wales, sailing Aegean Sea or Menai Strait
    Posts
    21,975

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    The advantage of Duplex stainless is that it can be hardened by heat treatment. Chain in it comes out almost twice as strong as 316. But 316 is usually grade 30, as with many common chandlery chains. There are very few examples of grade 30 fractures.
    Answers to some technical queries at new website http://coxeng.co.uk

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,498

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    I'm out on the periphery of news on chain failure but my limited exposure would agree with Vyv, reports of G30 failure are like hens teeth over the last 10 ish years. In fact excluding gripes over the quality of chain galvanising - chain seems to be ----- unremarkable. In Australia and NZ the move to G40 has not become fashionable and the large majority of galvanised chain is defined as Grade L (a G30 quality) which has been problem free.

    I did hear of a chain failure, about 10 years ago - but it was a weld failure, so poor manufacture (it wa a mainland Europe chain producer since taken over by one of the major lifting chain companies).

    To me this suggests chain 'spreadsheets' (focussed at G30 chain, or G30 strength) are about right (and have a decent safety factor) and that any moves toward G40 are unnecessary. Having said that G30 chain has been shown to be almost G40 quality, see Vyv's websites on testing. If G30 chain, were not near a G40 quality, and closer to the G30 specification - maybe reports of failure would increase.

    I do hear of shackle and swivel failure, much, more frequently than the almost unreported/claimed chain failure.

    Jonathan

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by vyv_cox View Post
    Oddly enough, although the galvanising on each end of my chain is reasonably intact it is the centre that is looking well past its best. It is the length that was regalvanised in UK nine years ago.
    Re Galvanized 9 years ago ? And now wanting to re galvanize ?
    How much is your boat worth ?
    A mate of mine nearly lost a Naiad, having had his chain re galvanized, in Venezuela.
    The chain snapped !
    My mate was in a restaurant with family, when he noticed, a Naiad, just like his, moving on the tide.
    Once he realized , it was his boat, and started to run downstairs, he was lucky someone was just coming to the dock, in a dingy !
    They managed to get on board & start the engine, then wind whatever chain was left, up, as the dingy played tug.
    Once the left over chain was inboard, they could put the engine into gear & get to a berth !
    Next day, he bought a new chain !

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North Wales, sailing Aegean Sea or Menai Strait
    Posts
    21,975

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by STILL AFLOAT View Post
    Re Galvanized 9 years ago ? And now wanting to re galvanize ?
    How much is your boat worth ?
    You seem to be confusing me with someone else. Where did I say I was going to have it regalvanised?

    However, since grade 30 and 40 chain are unhardened mild steel there is no reason why they should not be regalvanised countless times. There is advice that acid dipping grade 70 may lead to hydrogen embrittlement but the theory does not agree and actual cases seem very rare.
    Answers to some technical queries at new website http://coxeng.co.uk

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Gone cruising
    Posts
    2,395

    Default Re: Regalvanizing chain in Sicily

    Now in Licata. Have spoken to Matt (Yacht Service Licata), who has investigated and said the only places with the proper setup for re-galvanising chain are in North Italy. He might organize a run if there is enough interest (probably at least 4-5 boats). No idea of cost as yet.

    As some folk have PM'd me to express interest previously - please do get in touch with Matt to register interest if you're here in Licata and your chain is starting to look a bit brown

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