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  1. #21
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    Jun 2013
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    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmanofthehills View Post
    I think the issue may be with smaller boats -
    Or maybe not......
    Long term cruisers will often go up a size if they're splashing out on a new hook. No downside for the vast majority. It's no big deal.
    If you spend any time on web sailing forums you'll find no one really disagrees, except for one person on the planet on here who gets all hot and bothered about it for some reason and thinks there's some sort of global call for cruising boats to have 'monster anchors' (there isn't) and it must he stopped.
    Life's too short imho, stuck records go on ignore..

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    5,441

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHA View Post
    Or maybe not......
    Long term cruisers will often go up a size if they're splashing out on a new hook. No downside for the vast majority. It's no big deal.
    If you spend any time on web sailing forums you'll find no one really disagrees, except for one person on the planet on here who gets all hot and bothered about it for some reason and thinks there's some sort of global call for cruising boats to have 'monster anchors' (there isn't) and it must he stopped.
    Life's too short imho, stuck records go on ignore..

    I'm not sure that's fair on Neeves, he rightly points out that these 'beliefs' are just that, a general non-scientific sense that bigger is better. There are many open questions here.

    Spade for example told me a 20/25kg anchor would be perfect. So I bought two; a 'correctly' sized one and a bigger one for offshore. Spade laughed and dared to bet that the bigger one would never be used!

    Years later, and I've tested the smaller 'correct' one in over 60kts (offshore), wondering if I should weigh anchor and replace with the heavier one. Anchored on a long 3m over LAT shelf, so didn't bother. It never moved.

    So all I'd say is dunno, and if Neeves wants to investigate, more power to him

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    I'm not sure that's fair on Neeves, he rightly points out that these 'beliefs' are just that, a general non-scientific sense that bigger is better. There are many open questions here.

    Spade for example told me a 20/25kg anchor would be perfect. So I bought two; a 'correctly' sized one and a bigger one for offshore. Spade laughed and dared to bet that the bigger one would never be used!

    Years later, and I've tested the smaller 'correct' one in over 60kts (offshore), wondering if I should weigh anchor and replace with the heavier one. Anchored on a long 3m over LAT shelf, so didn't bother. It never moved.

    So all I'd say is dunno, and if Neeves wants to investigate, more power to him
    It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
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    5,271

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHA View Post
    It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.
    I think 60 kn with the recommended sized anchor is being hammered (especially as Spade tend to recommend weights smaller than Rocna, Supreme and Excel (if you investigated you would know this).

    I rest my case.

    The other comments are simply derogatory. But if it make you feel better - good on yer! Keep it up.

    Jonathan

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,441

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHA View Post
    It's not a 'belief', just quite a few long term cruisers will go up a size, absolutely no downside at all for most and live on the hook year in year out sooner or later you'll get hammered and might be glad of a little more size if you're getting hammered and the holding isn't great. He doesn't 'investigate', just bangs on about 'monster anchors' at every opertunity,no one else on the planet is bothered.

    It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.

    I'm not trying to compare Neeves to Galileo's 1633 condemnation by the Catholic Inquisition. But I do find his prosaic and mostly scientific examination of the facts to be a waft of fresh air in threads dominated by prejudice and dogmas from a mostly bygone age.

    Perhaps this is why he irritates some people so much?

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.

    I'm not trying to compare Neeves to Galileo's 1633 condemnation by the Catholic Inquisition. But I do find his prosaic and mostly scientific examination of the facts to be a waft of fresh air in threads dominated by prejudice and dogmas from a mostly bygone age.

    Perhaps this is why he irritates some people so much?
    If bigger hooks don't have higher holding why would bigger boats bother? Long term cruisers tend to want to edge the probabilities a bit more in their favour with no downside, a few extra Kg & a few quid won't even register on most cruising boats.

    But each to their own, that's just what happens quite often in the world of cruisers , your boat, your call

    Thinwater is the guy to listen to about physics, he does actually know what he's talking about with regards to forces & energy transfer.
    Last edited by GHA; 07-08-19 at 09:58.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Essex
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    22,441

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmanofthehills View Post
    So a 10kg bruce (22lb) is better than a massive 45lb CQR. Tells me all I suspected about CQRs.
    It was just one occasion, but as far as I remember we had tried two or three times to anchor in the fairway where the bottom is fairly hard, with occasional large stones. Not wishing to go further away, I tried the Bruce with a section of chain and the rest warp and was very impressed. Since the CQR lives in the roller I have continued to use it, but the Bruce has been effective as a stern anchor, for which it is pretty well standard issue in Sweden.
    Far away is near at hand in images of elsewhere

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
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    20,449

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    It nevertheless remains a belief up until the point scientific evidence provides a sound basis for it. I'm always hesitant to set aside personal experience in favour of the presumed authority of a group claiming true knowledge.
    Well Im always up for some real life anchor stories having done it around a billion times......goes with the job.

    So, there we are, Mrs Sensible and me, second Atlantic circuit. Moody 33. Antigua Jolly Harbour. Now that can be a PITA to clear in and out of with a lw kind of attitude ( they will be numpty muppest buggering about or something) . So a top tip is to rock up abot 1540. All the officials are clockwatching ready for homeward bounders.

    Clear out and anchor outside ready for a dawn oclock departure.

    Lots of the Carib is crystal clear water and you can see if the anchor is set..... but a quick dive ets you cool if you have a hand windlass as we did at the time.

    However outside Jolly, the wonderful sand is stirred to very poor vis so a good look never goes amiss. So, nudge in towards shore at right angles. Our seafarer sounder goes a bit bonkers in shallows, so mostly local knowledge. Nice distance off, drop CQR and set. Lovely, transits cool. However, safety first, on fins and mask, hop in over stern and fin around to anchor. Odd? mmm. Well we got medium long keel and only draw 1.4m.

    Find anchor, well set. Stand up, water to knees. Wave to wife, 'reckon we're good, open wine.'

    Next morning around 0530, anchor up by hand, beautiful dawn, bound for St. Maarten.

    Anchoring is easy.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
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    5,271

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    In the 19th Century the British were looking for a mechanism to increase sales to China. One idea muted was 'by convincing every Chinese person to extend the length of their shirt tails by one inch. ... ' as this would increase sale of cotton goods. (How things have changed!)

    Anchor makers appear to have good memories: Sales are not expanding so, generate a fear factor 'long term cruisers use anchors larger than those recommended' (this cannot be verified so safe to quote - and it will be repeated again and again). Ensure some gullible people join the fenzy - quote Dashew every so often - just get people to use bigger anchors than we recommend - we don't need to sell more anchors, just bigger anchors.

    Who needs salesmen.

    Hands up anyone who has dragged a 2nd gen anchor - and describe the circumstances, anchor size and recommended size, yacht length, seabed, wind etc. 2nd Gen anchors have been used for over 10 years now - there must be lots of anecdotes - and lessons to learn

    Episodes of catching shopping trolleys are accepted.

    Jonathan

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    currently in Pto Montt, Chile
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: Deliberately starting an anchor thread.

    2nd Gen?... I thought 2nd Gen was 'rocks in a bag'... 1st Gen being 'stone with a hole in it'

    Surely we are up to about the 5th or 6th Generation?

    Minor point of order... sorry... carry on chaps....

    I think my Rocna is 25kg.... 39 foot boat... about 8000 kg? Have yet to use it on hard sand....

    Must be 25 kg... wouldn't have let me on the 'plane with it otherwise....

    IMG_0001.JPG.jpgIMG_0001.JPG (1).jpg

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