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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,087

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
    Daft analogy! My mate has a new gen anchor, he always struggles to get it to set first time. We have a Delta, missus sets it first time usually and we dont drag.
    So what has that got to do with it!
    That statement is nothing but a pack of lies. You dont have any mates Notice he admits his missus sets the anchor
    I must have been reincarnated because I'm living the life of Riley.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlantic
    Posts
    20,449

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandyman View Post
    Accused of being a Crabfat Pig lol Jack didnt bite .
    Lived with the Clipper mob in RCY for 18 months. Saw all I needed to see. Things I thought I would never see.
    What happens in the showers stays in the showers...........

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kernow
    Posts
    4,122

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeves View Post
    Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

    The fact the investigating organisations might have erred is questionable - but their errors have not caused any deaths. The fact a man died, possibly prevenatable, is unforgivable.

    Hiding behind - it met specification - is simply an excuse, they should be using the best kit available.

    Symptomatic of the issues - they still use Delta anchors the RNLI have moved with the times, what stops Clipper.

    I admire the concept, of Clipper, and think it needs all the support it can get - but that does not mean they have got it right, yet. Too may deaths in my book.

    Jonathan
    Clipper boats rarely anchor. Nothing wrong with their choice. And the anchor and chain are stored low below as is common on other race boats.

    The choice of anchor hardly damns an entire organisation, and my personal experience of Clipper is /was hugely impressed with their training, maintenance and safety culture.

    Ocean racing is dangerous. Clipper IMHO do all they can to de-risk it, and I would always prefer to have a Clipper trained crew than a weekend solent sailor.

    Does the RYA examinations require you to demonstrate how to handle a MOB from first alert thru to having the victim safely below decks and receiving treatment? No, but all Clipper crew learn this, and in fact a day in clipper training rarely goes by where the full procedure is not tested or run thru at least once with "Bob", a weighted clothed victim.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kernow
    Posts
    4,122

    Default Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Quite apart from the deaths and the grounding, this is never true. If safety really was paramount, everybody involved would stay at home - as would all sailors, climbers, horse riders, glider pilots, parachutists, cyclists and probably gardeners. Those hoes can give a nasty cut. In reality it's always a balance between safety and fun.
    I think you mean "if safety was absolute", then I'd agree with you. It's about managing risk, at whatever level of sailing we all do, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Eastern Atlantic seaboard
    Posts
    3,109

    Default Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Red View Post
    I think you mean "if safety was absolute", then I'd agree with you. It's about managing risk, at whatever level of sailing we all do, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.
    I disagree and prefer JD's interpretation.
    Paramount: chief in importance or impact; supreme; preeminent: a point of paramount significance. above others in rank or authority; superior in power or jurisdiction.
    Not an appropriate term to use in risk assessment, nor, IMO, in other areas where complex judgement is required. It smacks of dogma.
    I'd rather be tethered to a pad eye than tethered to an iPad.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,650

    Default Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Red View Post
    , amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.
    I'm sure that they will find your expert assessment rather more reassuring that than those of the MAIB and MCA of whom they are so critical, or that of the participant I met whose comments they completely ignored.
    Last edited by Elecglitch; 11-08-19 at 19:13.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    tayvallich
    Posts
    2,949

    Default Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

    Hardly a "freak failure" of a clip that will fail with a sideload. It is disturbing that they use that terminology - it's plain wrong.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,288

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeves View Post
    Oddly, or not so oddly, they use them to stem an adverse tide - its a common practice.

    Other yachts, racing yachts, use Fortress and use them with success, the Volvo fleet some time ago to stem an adverse tide crossing Storm Bay, SA, and on the Vendee Globe have been used Fortress 2 or 3 times at Auckland Island (way south of NZ in the depths of the Southern Ocean). Fortress are commonly carried and though not commonly used - are used with success.

    A Fortress would weigh half the weight of a Delta specified for the same yacht - which do you think is easier to handle? And if they are not much use mid ocean - why lug about the extra weight (that is inconvenient to stow).

    I believe part of Clipper's induction programme, rightly, includes retrieving the anchor from the forepeak using a halyard - I'm not sure how many people are needed for deployment - but Fortress would at least be lighter. If you insist on a steel anchor - why not a Spade, Rocna or Supreme (all with Classification Society certification (as is Fortress). Which is easier to set, which is easier to handle, which is easier to stow - none of the answers would come up with Delta.

    Jonathan
    The whole name of the game is creating 'work' for the paying guests.
    Where's the customer satisfaction in using an anchor which a lady can toss over the side with no drama?

    Personally I think an anchor should be ready for quicker deployment than is implied by playing around with halyards.
    Obviously there's no point in that off soundings.
    We store ours below when racing but it can be got over the side PDQ.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    I wonder how many at the MAIB have sailed the southern ocean and have any idea what it is like. Sitting at a desk producing guide lines with the power of hindsight.......ummmm now that's a challenge

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,650

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaboy View Post
    I wonder how many at the MAIB have sailed the southern ocean and have any idea what it is like. Sitting at a desk producing guide lines with the power of hindsight.......ummmm now that's a challenge
    Are you really that thick, or have I just fallen for a wind up?
    Last edited by Elecglitch; 11-08-19 at 19:42.

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