Page 7 of 16 FirstFirst ... 23456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 153
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,441

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Whereas I trust the professionals at the MAIB rather more than someone who once met some Clipper employees in a pub. We all have our own standards.

    Although you might find many Clipper skippers mostly in agreement with the MAIB.

    Which adds to why openly attacking the MCA is a high risk strategy. People under oath -- if it gets to that -- tend to tell the truth

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Deale, MD, USA
    Posts
    1,720

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlowingOldBoots View Post
    However, it should be noted that Spinlock specifically state that lateral loading, the exact method of failure on the Clipper race is to be avoided. While the Spinlock Performance is a superior safety tether, the discussion should really be focussed on elimination of side load risk in a jack stay set up....
    Obviously true. But...
    * Can you be sure, in the heat of battle, that no one will ever clip some where they should not? Can you be sure you will not clip incorrectly? I am a very experienced climber and have been aware of the problem for 40 years, but I am not sure I won't make mistakes in the dark.
    * It failed under little more than body weight (500 pounds). Not acceptable.
    * There are UIAA and ISO standards Spinlock elected to ignore. Everyone else meets them.

    I'm not sayin' this is Clipper's fault. Maybe a little, since the gear has been obsolete for a while, but Spinlock supplied it. I'm blaming Spinlock some, because they knew better, but it did meet the minimum standard. Really, I'm blaming standards groups, and mostly, the MAIB for not saying "we need a new standard" in plain language. That is their job, as I see it.

    And the standard they need exists and is decades old!!

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,302

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Or maybe the standard for fall prevention in ordinary leisure yachts is not appropriate for fall arrest on a much bigger faster vessel in a commercial context?
    I think there are other standards for offshore harnesses, used for instance on oil rigs.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
    Posts
    777

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Like Thinwater I am a climber, if a fading one.

    I have been aware of sideload failure potential for man years. I take care to try and never clip so as to risk it. But and its big but, in climbing I am never ever on a single clip once I start moving up. I am taught to get two clips on as fast as possible. (If the higher fails I might fall but should be restrained by the lower one). What is more in Trad I am taught to evaluate the protection that an individual piece of gear might give.

    On Clipper trips folks clip to a pre-prepared jackstay with a single clip. The importance of this single clip is thus much greater. Many things could be done: Better clips, centre line jackstay where possible, netting between stanchions, double clips so once on station a short leash can be applied without disconnecting long leash.

    I note Spinlock advised of side load risk, so don't think they are to blame. Its Clipper that could have changed the gear or usage not Spinlock
    A boat is for going places

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kernow
    Posts
    4,126

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmanofthehills View Post
    Like Thinwater I am a climber, if a fading one.

    I have been aware of sideload failure potential for man years. I take care to try and never clip so as to risk it. But and its big but, in climbing I am never ever on a single clip once I start moving up. I am taught to get two clips on as fast as possible. (If the higher fails I might fall but should be restrained by the lower one). What is more in Trad I am taught to evaluate the protection that an individual piece of gear might give.

    On Clipper trips folks clip to a pre-prepared jackstay with a single clip. The importance of this single clip is thus much greater. Many things could be done: Better clips, centre line jackstay where possible, netting between stanchions, double clips so once on station a short leash can be applied without disconnecting long leash.

    I note Spinlock advised of side load risk, so don't think they are to blame. Its Clipper that could have changed the gear or usage not Spinlock
    Clipper have full length netting.

    SOP's in include double clipping on short length when in position and if feasible for the deck work.

    The tethers have 3 clips.

    Just a few facts amidst the supposition

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,827

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
    I think they should.

    They will learn that MAIB let Spinlock off light on the failed tether, which was the ultimate cause.

    So far as I know, every other locking tether clip has better than 3 times the side load strength and meets additional ISO standards. It seems Spinlock is quietly discontinuing the model, without recall, which tells you all you need to know. Why MAIB could not spit this out and why MAIB implied inaccurately that appropriate standards do not exist is beyond explanation. In fact, Spinlock supplied the stronger clips (Performance line) to many pro teams, so they obviously knew of the differences. Ironically, the stronger clips are cheaper and lighter.
    Thinwater, I think you have researched the subject of tethers and commented on them in an earlier thread. Putting aside for a moment the question of which of MAIB and Clipper is more right or wrong, the real lesson to be learnt from all of this is simple:
    Which is the best lifejacket / tether / hook system for ordinary sailors ?
    Can you refresh us on your current conclusions?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Dunno how Thinwater is supposed to know whats best but I hope its a Spinlock 'cos that's wot they are using this time.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3,213

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Nothing to do with clipper the MAIB or even sailing.

    I have had some involvement with similar investigations. It’s quite a shock when you wake up in the morning and find out the national news has a story about a fatal incident involving your organization, people you know, and you could have been on the shop floor responsible for the incident.
    Fortunately every time it’s happened I have not been personally involved. I have just known those who were. I end up dealing with the aftermath.
    Hopefully I will have retired before the next fatal incident. Odds are I will wake up to the news of a couple more serious incidents before then.
    You can never completely eliminate the risk of an incident occurring. All you can do is your best to reduce the risk to as low a practical. Or reasonably practical.
    When incidents happen. I am usually shocked to hear who was involved. One was the guy who trained me. Another was a mentor. I thought they were good people. They still made critical errors. Which were not caught.

    Clipper have had a couple of fatal incidents within a short period of time. The MAIB role is to investigate and determine how, why, and most importantly what can be changed to help reduce the chances of it happening again. They do not find fault.
    The MAIB are trying to help.

    One of my greatest concerns after an incident. Is trying to convince other individuals who were not involved. They have to change the way they do things. If they don’t we are probably going to repeat the incident.

    Bottom line I can tell Clipper needs to change the way they do things or it will happen again. Nothing specific I will leave that to the MAIB. It’s just the way the odds work.

    Resisting change will not help.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Deale, MD, USA
    Posts
    1,720

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Or maybe the standard for fall prevention in ordinary leisure yachts is not appropriate for fall arrest on a much bigger faster vessel in a commercial context?
    I think there are other standards for offshore harnesses, used for instance on oil rigs.
    Incorrect. In fact, industrial standards (ISO, OSHA, and ANSI) are much more demanding yet!!

    We are talking ONLY about recreational and leisure standards here.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Deale, MD, USA
    Posts
    1,720

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikeliner View Post
    Dunno how Thinwater is supposed to know whats best but I hope its a Spinlock 'cos that's wot they are using this time.
    Look at Spinlock's web page. They are obviously discontinuing the Gibb-style (the type that failed) and have introduced a new line using the Kong Tango Type K UIAA 1211 clips. If Clipper is still using Gibb-style hooks it is because they have old stock.

    I have every reason to believe the Performance lines are very good. I know the clips are, and the webbing did not fail. The only problem we know of or even suspect was the obsolete clip design.

    https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/safety-lines

    [Note that the original Gibb hook was forged SS and was different in design from the current Spinlock and Plastimo Gibb-style. The old clips were probably stronger in a side load, but lacking testing, any opinion is guesswork. The forged hooks are no longer produced.]
    Last edited by thinwater; 12-08-19 at 21:10.

Page 7 of 16 FirstFirst ... 23456789101112 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Latest YBW News

Find Boats For Sale

to
to