Page 8 of 21 FirstFirst ... 34567891011121318 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 209
  1. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Deale, MD, USA
    Posts
    1,755

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Regarding harnesses, the most important factors are probably not the design, but the fit:
    * Fit tightly enough that it cannot come over your shoulders. Most PFDs are fitted FAR too loose to function as harnesses.
    * Wear crotch straps (two separate straps, one on each side, or leg loops, are more practical). Without these, you may slip out, as a few have. That said, the straps are NOT designed to hold a fall and are only rated at body weight. Som have been documented to fail while hoisting only, during MOB drills. Not very reassuring....

    Why don't you ask the PFD manufacturers why the leg straps are only rated at body weight? I asked several, and the responses were unsatisfactory. They could be built to take the load and be more comfortable than current designs, but they are not. Perhaps there is no market interest. In fact, the great majority of sailors don't wear PFDs and very, very few run jacklines.
    https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_12517-1.html

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Posts
    13,900

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
    Incorrect. In fact, industrial standards (ISO, OSHA, and ANSI) are much more demanding yet!!

    We are talking ONLY about recreational and leisure standards here.
    If the shock loading characteristics for lateral (or any other) loadings are higher for fall prevention that for fall arrest someone needs to re-write the specifications....

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Posts
    13,900

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
    Regarding harnesses, the most important factors are probably not the design, but the fit:
    * Fit tightly enough that it cannot come over your shoulders. Most PFDs are fitted FAR too loose to function as harnesses.
    * Wear crotch straps (two separate straps, one on each side, or leg loops, are more practical). Without these, you may slip out, as a few have. That said, the straps are NOT designed to hold a fall and are only rated at body weight. Som have been documented to fail while hoisting only, during MOB drills. Not very reassuring....

    Why don't you ask the PFD manufacturers why the leg straps are only rated at body weight? I asked several, and the responses were unsatisfactory. They could be built to take the load and be more comfortable than current designs, but they are not. Perhaps there is no market interest. In fact, the great majority of sailors don't wear PFDs and very, very few run jacklines.
    https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_12517-1.html
    I agree totally here. Surely just about all crotch straps are designed to stop the lifejacket riding up when the wearer is in the water so wouldn't be designed to have the full body weight as either SWL or from an ergonomic perspective? That's what I've always assumed and I really don't fancy being lifted out of freezing water by even a couple of 1" webbing straps - that would be about 100Kg on them if you lifted a largish bloke out. It's also a huge load on the heart of the casualty given temperatures and the angle he/she is being lifted at. Ignoring the angle of lift the LJ would need to be similar to a climbing harness - Petzl know more about this than most and this is their high-end offering (actually it looks a little like something from a specialist lingerie catalogue in that photo ). Something like that would be pretty wearable on board but it still needs something that can keep you attached to the boat and tow you on your back.

    https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Harnesses/SITTA


  4. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,342

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    The Petzl design, and many other reputable products of similar designs from other manufacturers, is excellent for what it does. I use one for mast work and many foredeck hands, on large racing yachts, use them similarly. They are comfortable and you can wear them for prolonged periods. They do not replace a harness, as they have no shoulder straps (so wear both).

    As you say they don't keep you attached to the yacht nor tow you on your back - but that is an easy fix. Good hooks are available off the shelf - sourcing a good tether is easy.

    It would be easy for a manufacturer, or decent sailmaker, to fit those leg straps to a current harness or fit shoulder straps from a current harness to one of the illustrated devices.

    As Thinwater says - there does not appear to be a market demand.

    I think if you were to ask around (on this forum) you might find that a combined design has been trialled - but no interest was shown in the concept (or the concept was not marketed with sufficient vigour). Which raises an interesting point - I know a design has been developed and I know there is interest here - but I suspect that design if flaunted here to tune the design and assess reaction with a view to it being marketed - would be banned as it would break the T & C. Yes it would be made for profit - but it should save lives. Go figure!

    The problem currently being - there are all the ideas out there, there is all the equipment out there, if you read the correct magazines (see Thinwater's link) the theory, practice, omissions and mistakes are defined.

    Sadly you have to do all this your self, read there articles, find the hook, find the tether, buy a Pezl harness, buy a conventional harness and then marry them all together. The finished device would obviously not meet any of the specified requirements (as it would not have been tested) - even if it was bullet proof. Then you need to ensure there are strong points in the right place and ensure the jacklines are also in the right place and are 'safe' lines.

    Like an anchor rode (sorry) you should be able to go to one place and source exactly what is needed without faffing about buying one item here and another there. It should all fit and each component should be of the correct strength and to a similar specification. The device should be dated and a sensible lifespan indicated (the spec printed in UV sensitive ink - might be an idea)

    When you think about it - its not difficult - Jacklines, harness, tether, hook. Strong points are slightly different issue - but advice could be given when you buy the rest of the kit.

    Now tell me who does this sort of thing (with some knowledge behind them).

    Then tell me that YBW would allow the members to help develop a new harness to be sold commercially.

    And to be perfectly clear - I have nothing to do with the new muted design, I have no commercial interest in the idea, I happened to be introduced to the idea (which I thought refreshingly good) and shared the disappointment that it would not run. Frustratingly - there is expertise here and huge depth of knowledge that might tune the design and indicate the actual level of interest in the market place - but it, YBW, cannot be used by a gifted and knowledgeable amateur to hone and prove their ideas. The 'new' harness could be matched, perfectly with a defined hook (or hooks) and tether - and eventually sold all in one bag.

    If you ask how I know YBW would raise its eyebrows (and consider a ban) - I was interrogated closely in commencing an anchor thread on whether I had a commercial interest in the design, was going to test the design, was going to write an article on the design. I believe the interrogation was initiated by a member and picked up by the, or a, Mod. Part and parcel of the interrogation was also a query as to whether the design infringed copyright or registered design (which it did not).

    So if this post is deleted - I will not be surprised.

    Jonathan
    Last edited by Neeves; 12-08-19 at 23:43.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,540

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
    Why don't you ask the PFD manufacturers why the leg straps are only rated at body weight? I asked several, and the responses were unsatisfactory.
    It's a very good question. Some of the leg straps I have seen have been so flimsy that I suspect they are only there for marketing. It's not only the 1" webbing - it's the cheap and cheerful nylon clips.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia.
    Posts
    5,342

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    I think mandatory inclusion of leg or crotch straps were introduced in the, very early, '90s. At the time they were unavailable (in HK) and we were recommended to sew tape on (with JD's mention , of which he does not approve, of cheap and cheerful plastic clips) It is amazing that they have received so little, or no, attention and are still not much better than the quick fix, of afterthought, offered to us today.

    Jonathan

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    764

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy_o_g View Post
    If the shock loading characteristics for lateral (or any other) loadings are higher for fall prevention that for fall arrest someone needs to re-write the specifications....
    There should be no shock loading with fall prevention!

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Home - Sothampton, Boat - Gosport
    Posts
    10,100

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by penberth3 View Post
    There should be no shock loading with fall prevention!
    Wouldn't be, if the prevention device, whatever it is, has no slack. Since we're talking about the real world, there's likely to be slack, so shock loading will occur. Not as much as a climber who's dropped several metres before the line tensions, but enough to need a decent margin of strength.

    As a pragmatic sailor, I recognise that things won't always be ideal. I therefore want kit that will function in less than ideal conditions, including clipping on the wrong way, even though I rarely leave the Solent.

    There are two popular acronyms in health and safety. BATNIEC - Best Available Technology Not Involving Excessive Cost and CATNAP - Cheapest Available Technology Narrowly Avoiding Prosecution. The Southern Ocean is an inherently dangerous place; it seems to me that It behoves those whose business is taking inexperienced sailors there should be using the former acronym, rather than the latter.
    Steve
    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,525

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    I have read down this thread and been reminded of a memorable day out on the Solent aboard one of a pair of Clipper yachts as a guest of the MCA. A great day out as one boat contained the good and the great of the yachting Press and the other contained a rough and ready bunch press ganged from the reprobates of the Merchant Navy, of which your correspondent was the least notable. We thrashed them, mainly because we set a spinnaker and they piked...

    The only time I have met Sir R K-J, who impressed me a lot.

    Clearly relationships have gone far down hill since then. This is a pity.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bristol Channel
    Posts
    855

    Default Re: Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    There are two popular acronyms in health and safety. BATNIEC - Best Available Technology Not Involving Excessive Cost and CATNAP - Cheapest Available Technology Narrowly Avoiding Prosecution.
    Thankyou for that detail, now I can justify looking at the Forum in work breaks and will introduce these acronyms to the Railways as fast as possible. I am a clear champion of what you term BATNIEC but can now shorthand the alternative.
    A boat is for going places

Page 8 of 21 FirstFirst ... 34567891011121318 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Latest YBW News

Find Boats For Sale

to
to