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  1. #91
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Greenwich
    Posts
    7,558

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    If I was a day or more out I wouldn’t turn back if I had no GPS or Log.

    But I always carry a sextant and a walker log and even if I lost the spinner and the spare you can always make a chip log or estimate your speed and distance run.

    I’d get anxious without an echo sounder though. (Even though we carry a lead line)
    I don’t carry a sextant but would still keep going on a Biscay passage without. GPS or log, but not an ocean crossing. Once you’ve crossed the channel at the wide end a few times by DR with fog in parts then you get used to the old technique of estimating your speed and building in an offset based on your likely error so that when you finally see a new unidentifiable coastline you know to turn left or right until your destination appears.

    I love GPS but we’ve never had a chart plotter and mostly sail by line of sight. Where that’s not possible then a GPS position on the chart every 3 to 6 hours works fine for us.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,396

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by RupertW View Post
    I don’t carry a sextant but would still keep going on a Biscay passage without. GPS or log, but not an ocean crossing. Once you’ve crossed the channel at the wide end a few times by DR with fog in parts then you get used to the old technique of estimating your speed and building in an offset based on your likely error so that when you finally see a new unidentifiable coastline you know to turn left or right until your destination appears.

    I love GPS but we’ve never had a chart plotter and mostly sail by line of sight. Where that’s not possible then a GPS position on the chart every 3 to 6 hours works fine for us.
    I agree - more or less.

    I'd be glad I had a sextant for Biscay because after a few days (which it can easily take) your DR starts to get a bit iffy...

    I too have crossed wide parts of the channel on DR. (eg Penzance to L'Aberwrach). Fog as you approach that bit of Brittany concentrates the navigators mind wonderfully. I suspect that those of us who remember doing such things are becoming fewer in number.
    Semper aliud

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    1,145

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    When Salcombe had dredging done in the 1980s the contractor had to get 2 tugs there from Plymouth The first seagoing tug duly arrived in not too good visibility and its professional skipper was surprised when the proprietor of the firm arrived with the second small river tug in the early hours of the morning despite having no navigation aids at all. Apparently the shipping forecast said westerly winds so they'd 'followed the smoke from the funnel'!

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Greenwich
    Posts
    7,558

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by john_morris_uk View Post
    I agree - more or less.

    I'd be glad I had a sextant for Biscay because after a few days (which it can easily take) your DR starts to get a bit iffy...

    I too have crossed wide parts of the channel on DR. (eg Penzance to L'Aberwrach). Fog as you approach that bit of Brittany concentrates the navigators mind wonderfully. I suspect that those of us who remember doing such things are becoming fewer in number.
    I am increasingly aware that my internal view of myself as the twenty something modern young sailor in Concarneau in a 24 footer is a odds with my view in the mirror. I thought about a sextant (and learning how to use one) on our 5 day Rabat to Lanzarote a few weeks ago as it was overcast the whole time with just occasional brief glimpses of where the sun was.

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham_Wright View Post
    Son took a tug across from the Clyde to Northern Ireland. His nav was completely dependent on GPS.

    When chastised, he told me no tugboats have logs. He had a compass but couldn't read it as the dome was obscured.

    He became stroppy when asked what would happen with a GPS outage.
    Views?
    Assuming this is a commercial vessel please refer him to the Workboat Code(code of proactive for the safety of small workboats & pilot boats) and also MGN 280 - but to be honest if he is a commercial skipper he should know these two publications back to front anyway.

    Sounds like he is working for a cowboy operation. If the compass is goosed, how are the life-rafts, bilge pumps, FFA etc?

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Posts
    5,378

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by obmij View Post
    Assuming this is a commercial vessel please refer him to the Workboat Code(code of proactive for the safety of small workboats & pilot boats) and also MGN 280 - but to be honest if he is a commercial skipper he should know these two publications back to front anyway.

    Sounds like he is working for a cowboy operation. If the compass is goosed, how are the life-rafts, bilge pumps, FFA etc?
    He has arrived at that decision also! It was a one off trip and he has declined the offer of further work. It was still his responsibility though.
    I'd rather be naked
    www.mastaclimba.com

  7. #97
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    21,396

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by obmij View Post
    Assuming this is a commercial vessel please refer him to the Workboat Code(code of proactive for the safety of small workboats & pilot boats) and also MGN 280 - but to be honest if he is a commercial skipper he should know these two publications back to front anyway.

    Sounds like he is working for a cowboy operation. If the compass is goosed, how are the life-rafts, bilge pumps, FFA etc?
    Indeed - see my post No25 in this thread - although I was at sea and couldn't remember the correct names for the codes of practice etc.

    I'm delighted that the young man has foregone any more work with the company involved. Any accidents or incidents and it falls on the head of the skipper as well as the management company...
    Semper aliud

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    557

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by obmij View Post
    Assuming this is a commercial vessel please refer him to the Workboat Code(code of proactive for the safety of small workboats & pilot boats) and also MGN 280 - but to be honest if he is a commercial skipper he should know these two publications back to front anyway.

    Sounds like he is working for a cowboy operation. If the compass is goosed, how are the life-rafts, bilge pumps, FFA etc?
    Ahem...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGN280
    18.3.2
    A vessel which operates more than 20 miles from land (Area Category 0, 1 or 2) should be
    provided with:-
    .1 A receiver for a global navigation satellite system or a terrestrial radionavigation system,
    or other means suitable for use at all times throughout the intended voyage to establish
    and update the vesselís position at all times.
    .2 A distance measuring log; except that this need not be provided where the navigational
    aid in Section 18.3.2.1 provides reliable distance measurements in the area of operation of
    the vessel.
    (Workboat code says the same, being based on 280)

    So GPS is actually acceptable, I think we would all agree that most sets provide "reliable distance measurements", at least compared to other types of log.

    I also think the trip described could actually be done in cat 2 waters. Thus not requiring a log at all. Makes sense if you imagine a water taxi or small ferry which is little more than a big dinghy is hardly going to be dead-reckoning its way around.

    Not that it's a great idea, and the boat does sound a bit knackered.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by JBJag27 View Post
    Ahem...


    (Workboat code says the same, being based on 280)

    So GPS is actually acceptable, I think we would all agree that most sets provide "reliable distance measurements", at least compared to other types of log.

    I also think the trip described could actually be done in cat 2 waters. Thus not requiring a log at all. Makes sense if you imagine a water taxi or small ferry which is little more than a big dinghy is hardly going to be dead-reckoning its way around.

    Not that it's a great idea, and the boat does sound a bit knackered.
    Agreed - but a compass is essential (which was obscured)

    It's pretty tough declining anything when you are starting out as a skipper so good on him for doing so if he thought that was the best course of action. It's difficult striking a balance between managing & progressing defects (which every vessel has) and putting up with unacceptable safety issues. It's the hardest part of the job. Hope he has every success in finding further work.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    557

    Default Re: Navigating without a log

    Quote Originally Posted by obmij View Post
    Agreed - but a compass is essential (which was obscured)
    They must have had a hand compass though, you don't have to have one fixed to a bulkhead. The actual practice matters more than the polish.

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