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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    tayvallich
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    2,966

    Default Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    as per

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49346082

    saying (amongst other things) that historic passenger vessels on fresh water still do not have watertight bulkheads retrospectively fitted (generally).

    could some of the inertia be due to roro's having none on the cargo deck either?

    seems unfair to spotlight historic vessels, in sheltered waters, but not seagoing large passenger vessels in potentially rough seas?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,547

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikedaft View Post
    could some of the inertia be due to roro's having none on the cargo deck either?
    The DFDS ferry from North Shields to IJmuiden have waterproof doors along the length of the car decks.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    A Member State of the European Union
    Posts
    5,969

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    Shortly before the time of the Marchioness sinking my wife and I were invited to a policeman's 60th birthday bash held on one of these Thames river boats (it may even have been the Marchioness).

    She was an old boat and her once open upper deck had had a saloon built completely over it with just a small open area at bow and stern. The only means of exiting from the vessel was by small doors at the forward and aft ends of this saloon.

    Practically everyone got uproariously drunk as the boat sailed aimlessly up and down a short stretch of the river and I remember commenting to my wife that situation was dangerous because in the event of a sinking, the chance of all these drunken people being safely evacuated was nil.

    I am not, for one moment, suggesting that drink played any part in the heavy loss of life in the Marchioness. But even perfectly sober people would have had little chance of escaping her.
    "Brexit: like watching a library being burned down by people who can't read"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    1,178

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikedaft View Post
    as per

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49346082

    saying (amongst other things) that historic passenger vessels on fresh water still do not have watertight bulkheads retrospectively fitted (generally).

    could some of the inertia be due to roro's having none on the cargo deck either?

    seems unfair to spotlight historic vessels, in sheltered waters, but not seagoing large passenger vessels in potentially rough seas?
    Agreed, i understand that many empty box`s are carried on container ships, as its cheaper than paying shore side dock storage. So yes 40ft air bags

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,841

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    It's often hugely expensive sometimes impossible to satisfactorily modify a historic vessel and still retain its historicity. A fairly typical pen-pusher reaction to a one off tragedy.

    Ro-Ro car ferries are required by law to compartmentalise the car decks following the Herald of Free Enterprise accident. They are inherently unseaworthy unless the watertight doors are shut against ingress of large amounts of water. It's exactly the same your dinghy becoming unstable if it gets too much water in. All that weight moving around just tips it up whether it's an 8ft dinghy or 500ft car ferry. Its called the Free surface effect

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Medway, UK, boat in SYH
    Posts
    2,367

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poignard View Post
    Shortly before the time of the Marchioness sinking my wife and I were invited to a policeman's 60th birthday bash held on one of these Thames river boats (it may even have been the Marchioness).

    She was an old boat and her once open upper deck had had a saloon built completely over it with just a small open area at bow and stern. The only means of exiting from the vessel was by small doors at the forward and aft ends of this saloon.

    Practically everyone got uproariously drunk as the boat sailed aimlessly up and down a short stretch of the river and I remember commenting to my wife that situation was dangerous because in the event of a sinking, the chance of all these drunken people being safely evacuated was nil.

    I am not, for one moment, suggesting that drink played any part in the heavy loss of life in the Marchioness. But even perfectly sober people would have had little chance of escaping her.
    I did attend a party on the Marchioness a couple of months before it went down and agree 100% with your comment.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    37,730

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    The big difference between Herald and the Marchioness is that the Marchioness disaster was best avoided by not having a collision with a larger vessel. Herald, IIRC happened due to the then-common practice of leaving the dock with the bow doors open to clear the fumes from the car deck. No other vessel involved.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    North from the Nab about 10 miles
    Posts
    8,841

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    The big difference between Herald and the Marchioness is that the Marchioness disaster was best avoided by not having a collision with a larger vessel. Herald, IIRC happened due to the then-common practice of leaving the dock with the bow doors open to clear the fumes from the car deck. No other vessel involved.
    Herald sank because the crewman responsible for closing the door s was asleep in his cabin. There was no way the bridge could check whether the doors were being closed, and they just assumed it was safe to accelerate once clear of the harbour, causing the bow wave to spill into the car deck. A few hundred tons of water aboard and sloshing around the car deck unhindered and that was that. Nowadays they have CCTV as well as voice Comms with car deck.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3,221

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    It’s very unusual for structural requirements to be applied retroactively to existing vessels.
    In cases where it is required there is usually a 5 or 10 year implantation period after which the vessel must be either modified or replaced.
    Without exemptions for historical vessels, there would be many interesting old historic vessels which you would no longer have the opportunity to sail on.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    West Sussex / Hants
    Posts
    28,660

    Default Re: Marchioness, MCA proposals not yet enacted?

    BUT inexperienced people just thinking of a floating nightclub should be made aware of such deficiencies before they go aboard and get served drinks, and the skippers & crew of such historic vessels should be top notch, the passengers paying premium rate for premium treatment on classic craft -

    If not a classic craft, just old and being used to make money without premium treatment and crew there's a problem.

    I'm speaking from experience -

    In 1994 I worked on a hotel barge in France which always had elderly guests; despite operating on big fast flowing rivers and being seriously in the middle of nowhere we had no safety instructions or evacuation drills for the guests, no liferafts, no lifejackets, no VHF, no sat -phone, no flares, no First Aid.

    I did arrange with the skipper ' if one of them goes over the side I'll throw the only lifering and jump in after ' but any precautions I mentioned after that were took to be moaning - BTW it was not a French run outfit, charged rather high ( ) fees and making heaps of dosh.
    Anderson 22 Owners Association - For info please ask here or PM me.

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