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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    10,443

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by bedouin View Post
    Ah - I'm clearly an old fashioned sort of guy - my halyard winches are on the mast
    Definitely time for an upgrade then!
    You never know, I might be right!

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    The aft winches on the GS are for the main sheet, what is known as the German system. You can just about make it out in this picture.
    Bit of thread drift...

    I really can't get the hang on the German system - It drives me nuts.
    Putting a gybe in with that setup is an exercise in winch dancing, especially as the main sheet slack is generally on the wrong side.

    Reefing also tends to be some what slower - I'd definitely not expect to use the German system when racing...?

    Am I missing something?!

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    5,570

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by glynd View Post
    Bit of thread drift...

    I really can't get the hang on the German system - It drives me nuts.
    Putting a gybe in with that setup is an exercise in winch dancing, especially as the main sheet slack is generally on the wrong side.

    Reefing also tends to be some what slower - I'd definitely not expect to use the German system when racing...?

    Am I missing something?!
    Have you sailed with a well set up German mainsheet system? Ours is great. Mainsheet is right next to helm so easy to handle singlehanded.
    Do need to winch in a bit of rope for windy gybe but no issue. And canít see any reason why would make any difference reefing or unreefing (just for sport I timed my last efforts, reefing 3 minutes in total including rope tidy up, with sail not filling for under 60 seconds, unreefing took a couple of minutes longer to pull out reef lines as was doing solo).

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    10,443

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Don't understand why reefing would be slower? You just ease sheet, reef, then winch it back in surely? Why is that slower?

    Most crews racing with it tend to splice the sheet into a continuous line, so no need to worry about having all the rope on one side or not. And they then use the mast man to "bounce the As" to bring it in quickly - so pulling hard at the part of the sheet running from the gooseneck to the block on the side deck whilst the trimmer tails. Either through a gybe (if not just chucking the boom over) or at the bottom mark.

    What I would do gybing in cruising mode would just be to do the work on one winch, so winch in and then take the sheet out of the self tailer, gybe the boat and ease on the same winch. There's no real need to ease the windward sheet. In fact, once you've spliced the rope to be continuous a lot of trimmers (when they want continuous sheet adjustment - on a reach for example) will have the leeward sheet out of the self tailer, and will be easing that and grinding the windward winch when they want to trim on. One hand to ease, one to trim on basically.
    Or they just detail one of the "lesser" crew to grind for them...
    You never know, I might be right!

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunedin View Post
    Have you sailed with a well set up German mainsheet system? Ours is great. Mainsheet is right next to helm so easy to handle singlehanded.
    Do need to winch in a bit of rope for windy gybe but no issue. And can’t see any reason why would make any difference reefing or unreefing (just for sport I timed my last efforts, reefing 3 minutes in total including rope tidy up, with sail not filling for under 60 seconds, unreefing took a couple of minutes longer to pull out reef lines as was doing solo).
    Only really experienced the system in sunny places on chartered Jeanneau's - the rest of the crew sail a week a year.
    Having the main sheet / reefing lines / halyards all in the same place make it very quick for one person to put a reef in/out whilst continuing on headsail...

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    Don't understand why reefing would be slower? You just ease sheet, reef, then winch it back in surely? Why is that slower?

    Most crews racing with it tend to splice the sheet into a continuous line, so no need to worry about having all the rope on one side or not. And they then use the mast man to "bounce the As" to bring it in quickly - so pulling hard at the part of the sheet running from the gooseneck to the block on the side deck whilst the trimmer tails. Either through a gybe (if not just chucking the boom over) or at the bottom mark.

    What I would do gybing in cruising mode would just be to do the work on one winch, so winch in and then take the sheet out of the self tailer, gybe the boat and ease on the same winch. There's no real need to ease the windward sheet. In fact, once you've spliced the rope to be continuous a lot of trimmers (when they want continuous sheet adjustment - on a reach for example) will have the leeward sheet out of the self tailer, and will be easing that and grinding the windward winch when they want to trim on. One hand to ease, one to trim on basically.
    Or they just detail one of the "lesser" crew to grind for them...
    A spliced continuous loop sounds interesting, and I can see how that would alleviate things a lot - not generally possible on a charter boat though.
    I generally sail on boats without a shortage of crew or winches, so the system just feels alien and deficient!

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    3,545

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Look the traditional cruiser-racer was something like a Starlight 39, a fast solid boat that does not slam. However these are to old and the last ones were built in about 1998. So some people have suggested a Dufour 40, which is a nice boat, but will slam in a sea way. I would avoid Arconas are whilst they are often fitted out as cruiser/racers they are usually very deep drafted. My choice would be a Sweden 41 or 45 or an XC. You might also consider a Southerly or Allures if your budget can run to it, both of these boats can turn a really good speed particularly downwind with the keel up.

    Sigma's too old
    Avoid the French boats (Too light will slam)
    HR, Malo & Najad too heavy. Malo are very nice though.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Greenwich
    Posts
    7,472

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by flaming View Post
    Why would you expect 2 pairs? Unless you're trimming the main with winches you only need one.
    The winches aft was something that I was initially sceptical about, but in fact came to love as it meant I could tweak away to my heart's content without disturbing the family who's notions of sailing were either to sleep or read books....
    I’d be very frustrated without a pair of winches either side and miss a more racing oriented boat with more.

    For example I want to reef and have one winch for Genoa halyard leaving me just one winch for mainsheet, main halyard and the reefing line on that side. The other side in that scenario starts with a pair of unused winches and may have the vang on one briefly.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    10,443

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven Spades View Post
    So some people have suggested a Dufour 40, which is a nice boat, but will slam in a sea way.
    Not my experience... Done many thousands of miles in one, really miss that boat.

    The 40 actually had a pretty fine entry, which limits slamming.
    You never know, I might be right!

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    10,443

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RupertW View Post
    I’d be very frustrated without a pair of winches either side and miss a more racing oriented boat with more.

    For example I want to reef and have one winch for Genoa halyard leaving me just one winch for mainsheet, main halyard and the reefing line on that side. The other side in that scenario starts with a pair of unused winches and may have the vang on one briefly.
    I think we must be talking at cross purposes... Your mainsheet should be nowhere near the halyard winches on a performance boat. And on most performance boats the kicker is a cascade and has no need of a winch.
    Performance boats that have a german mainsheet system have a dedicated pair of mainsheet winches aft. Then a pair of primaries for the jib sheets, then the halyard winches on the coachroof.
    You never know, I might be right!

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boat (now back in) the Clyde
    Posts
    5,570

    Default Re: What premium performance cruiser / cruiser racer?

    I wouldn’t dismiss the Arcona’s (per Seven Spades). These, together with the X Yachts (older X series or newer XP), are probably the definitive “performance cruiser”, with superb practical and tactile wood interiors. Depending on model and generation the stern may be closed or partially open, and various keel options and depths. If budget allows they would be top of my list.
    The J’s are often slightly better race boats, but more compromised interiors as a result.

    Dufour 40 is great boat, but less “premium interior” - as are the latest Dehler generation and more recent Elans (not Impression, which are pure cruisers).

    Starlight great but getting older, as are most Dehler 39 and Sweden Yachts.

    Wauquiez 40 (the stern cockpit one, not the deck saloon one) a rarer but very attractive boat also, if a little less performance than an Arcona or X.
    Last edited by dunedin; 02-09-19 at 15:26.

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