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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    Wales
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    931

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by AntarcticPilot View Post
    I merely gave moisture content as an example, where surveyors commonly remove patches of antifoul to perform the test - access to the exterior of a hull is MUCH better than access to the interior, and internal coverings may interfere with the test and cause even more damage than external access. But there are other things that may cause minor damage; surveyors carry out physical probes of material with spikes, knives and hammers. No-one is doing a survey on my boat without a firm commitment to proceed in the shape of a deposit, which would be refundable if the survey turned up something that said "walk away" (which isn't going to happen).

    Frankly, I don't see the problem. If you like a boat and she has the features you want, then the purpose of the survey isn't to help you decide whether or not this is the boat for you - it is to determine the condition of this particular example, and whether there are any unforeseen problems that merit negotiation on price or (in the very worst case) walking away. If you aren't certain whether a boat is for you, then it's probably a waste of time and money having a survey - the survey won't help you make up your mind, it will simply tell you the condition of the boat. Whether it's the right boat for you depends on other factors that are personal to you, and the only person who can decide that is you - not a surveyor.
    I'm going to need a surveyor to come across and say, "Yep we need to damage the boat to get good readings" because I can in noway find any evidence that they cause any damage to the boat whatsoever. But likewise, if you refused a proper examination of the boat, I'd walk away there and then. There's something inherently dodgy about a seller who doesn't want their goods inspected. In fact the only evidence that I can find is that the survey is non-destructive.

    https://www.boats.com/boat-sellers-g...-boat-surveys/ http://www.bmse.co.uk/bmse-condition...rchase-survey/
    http://www.cardiffmarine.co.uk/marine_survey_types.html "A marine surveyor cannot use destructive testing"
    http://www.bmse.co.uk/bmse-condition...rchase-survey/ "There is emphasis on physical testing rather than merely visual inspection. Non destructive testing equipment is also applied where appropriate."

    Destructive testings is in addition to a survey *if* necessary (i.e. they've seen signs of something) and will need full agreement between purchaser and seller (at which point I'd expect the contract). It's should be up to me at that point to decide whether it's worth putting the deposit down can I *potentially* afford the repair if it's not too bad for example.

    For me, even if a boat has all the features I want and looks really pretty, I'll ultimately rely on the surveys report first and foremost. Looks and features are secondary considerations. If your boat is rotten, doesn't matter how much electrical equipment, heads, berths, headroom it has, I'll walk away. Maybe most boat buyers think differently.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    8,225

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminescent View Post
    I'm going to need a surveyor to come across and say, "Yep we need to damage the boat to get good readings" because I can in noway find any evidence that they cause any damage to the boat whatsoever. But likewise, if you refused a proper examination of the boat, I'd walk away there and then. There's something inherently dodgy about a seller who doesn't want their goods inspected. In fact the only evidence that I can find is that the survey is non-destructive.

    https://www.boats.com/boat-sellers-g...-boat-surveys/ http://www.bmse.co.uk/bmse-condition...rchase-survey/
    http://www.cardiffmarine.co.uk/marine_survey_types.html "A marine surveyor cannot use destructive testing"
    http://www.bmse.co.uk/bmse-condition...rchase-survey/ "There is emphasis on physical testing rather than merely visual inspection. Non destructive testing equipment is also applied where appropriate."

    Destructive testings is in addition to a survey *if* necessary (i.e. they've seen signs of something) and will need full agreement between purchaser and seller (at which point I'd expect the contract). It's should be up to me at that point to decide whether it's worth putting the deposit down can I *potentially* afford the repair if it's not too bad for example.

    For me, even if a boat has all the features I want and looks really pretty, I'll ultimately rely on the surveys report first and foremost. Looks and features are secondary considerations. If your boat is rotten, doesn't matter how much electrical equipment, heads, berths, headroom it has, I'll walk away. Maybe most boat buyers think differently.
    I survey my own boats-always have, always will.

    Even expensive - for me at least - boats up to £150,000 Stirling.

    If you dont know enough to do the same, you are in the trap of letting a 'professional' do it.

    Some are good, many are crap. Some of the survey reports I have read have been a joke, so many get outs, why bother? You wont get redress afterwards if you buy a surveyed pup.

    In case you were unaware, the most commonly used meter for checking the moisture content of GRP hulls is a timber meter.
    AFAIK there is not a specific meter for GRP moisture testing.

    The experience and skill of the surveyor using the meter appears to be of paramount importance, as is not testing a recently hauled boat for hull moisture.

    As to the rest of the equipment, what you might reject might be fine for the owner or another potential customer.

    As I said in a previous post on this thread, believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

    Good luck, but you appear to be asking a lot of a broker or surveyor in making a purchase.

    IMHO, of course.............................

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    931

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by rotrax View Post
    I survey my own boats-always have, always will.

    Even expensive - for me at least - boats up to £150,000 Stirling.

    If you dont know enough to do the same, you are in the trap of letting a 'professional' do it.

    Some are good, many are crap. Some of the survey reports I have read have been a joke, so many get outs, why bother? You wont get redress afterwards if you buy a surveyed pup.

    In case you were unaware, the most commonly used meter for checking the moisture content of GRP hulls is a timber meter.
    AFAIK there is not a specific meter for GRP moisture testing.

    The experience and skill of the surveyor using the meter appears to be of paramount importance, as is not testing a recently hauled boat for hull moisture.

    As to the rest of the equipment, what you might reject might be fine for the owner or another potential customer.

    As I said in a previous post on this thread, believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

    Good luck, but you appear to be asking a lot of a broker or surveyor in making a purchase.

    IMHO, of course.............................
    It appears to be an ultrasound for GRP. Asking a lot? Hm, I want them to survey it and tell me what condition its in XD. If they think it it's in good condition and I like the look of it I'll go for it. As you point out, I don't know enough, so I have to rely on a professional. I also concur on the equipment, but not yet experienced enough to say one way or the other again, I'd be relying on the surveyor.

    I do agree on the risks of the survey (and I also see where Antartic is coming from, I too wouldn't consent to any damage on my boat without a contract or at the very least costs covered to rectify. We're not exactly disagreeing just seeing things from two different pov and experience levels.)

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    8,225

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminescent View Post
    It appears to be an ultrasound for GRP. Asking a lot? Hm, I want them to survey it and tell me what condition its in XD. If they think it it's in good condition and I like the look of it I'll go for it. As you point out, I don't know enough, so I have to rely on a professional. I also concur on the equipment, but not yet experienced enough to say one way or the other again, I'd be relying on the surveyor.

    I do agree on the risks of the survey (and I also see where Antartic is coming from, I too wouldn't consent to any damage on my boat without a contract or at the very least costs covered to rectify. We're not exactly disagreeing just seeing things from two different pov and experience levels.)
    Possibly better to do as a couple I recently assisted. They were put on to First Mate and I as owners of the same vessel they were contemplating buying for a detailed view of their possible purchase. Ask on these pages if an experienced forum member might view with you and give their opinion.

    But, even with a surveyor, that is what you mostly get-opinion. A more in depth opinion, but still opinion.

    Unless, as in the case of the first yacht we owned, the surveyor found a decayed stern gland/stern tube cuff-it fell apart and crumbled if you touched it. He said that required urgent replacemant-and it most certainly did!

    The water tank leaked, but as it was empty, he did not check it. It turned out to be an easy repair. If it had been inaccesible, different story.

    As you can tell, I am not a great fan of Pro surveys. Too many get outs for me.

    If I get it wrong, I must blame myself and it has not cost a lot of money.

    Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice..............................

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Clyde
    Posts
    7,394

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Rotrax. How does that work out for insurance? I know in the UK I've always been asked for a survey report when a new boat has been purchased and insured and every 10 years there after if I still have it.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    4,818

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Like it or not surveys are almost always destructive to some extent, sometimes in ways you don't expect. At one end of the scale is spikes and knives stuck into timber on wooden boats. At the other end of the scale a GRP boat may just have some little squares of antifoul removed, which is fine if the buyer goes on to complete the purchase, but if he doesn't it sets up deep suspicions on the part of subsequent viewers. That's why the standard practice is offer, contract, survey not survey, offer, contract.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Med
    Posts
    6,207

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyro View Post
    Rotrax. How does that work out for insurance? I know in the UK I've always been asked for a survey report when a new boat has been purchased and insured and every 10 years there after if I still have it.
    It depend who you with , how old the boat and the valve of the boat .
    Three year six ago when I brought this boat I had the keel rudder and underneath of the boat surveyed, my insurance company was more then happy for me to self survey the rest myself .
    The days when I had cheap boats I never bothered with surveys and I was never asked for one .
    Warning forumite dyslexia near by
    www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Oxfordshire, Gosport and Wellington New Zealand.
    Posts
    8,225

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyro View Post
    Rotrax. How does that work out for insurance? I know in the UK I've always been asked for a survey report when a new boat has been purchased and insured and every 10 years there after if I still have it.
    Well, First Mate and I have purchased four yachts outright and a third share in another over the last 17 years.

    Insurance survey never been required by us, but the insurance company accepted a recent survey on the GibSea 96 that the previous owner had had carried out.

    Never kept a boat ten years yet, but the last two were under ten years old when purchased.

    I do, however, keep the insurer fully informed of any major changes/improvements/repairs as they occur and always inform them of its wimter location and arrangements for checking it at least monthly.

    So far, so good.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    38,281

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    I've been present at two surveys of GRP, one for a boat I bought, the other for a boat I sold.
    Taught me a bit about boats and surveys.

    You have to be realistic about what you expect them to find.
    You will find more of the minor problems when you try to use the boat.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    35,609

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by jwilson View Post
    a GRP boat may just have some little squares of antifoul removed, which is fine if the buyer goes on to complete the purchase, but if he doesn't it sets up deep suspicions on the part of subsequent viewers.
    That's a good point. The first boat we bought had quite a few such squares from a previous survey. Didn't influence our decision - we believe the previous potential purchaser got cold feet over some acknowledged engine issues - but I can well imagine some buyers thinking "what did he find, why did he pull out?"

    Pete

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