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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Boat Orwell - Me Norwich
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    8,213

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by francophile51 View Post
    Having acquired those facts, you have then a basis for comparisons with similar vessels and their asking prices. I don't imagine for a second that this will be the end of the story but it gives you a means of performing an initial analysis of the "condition" of essential elements and value for money. In fact, it does more than that. If the rigging, sails and AP have been replaced it might suggest that the owner is a sailor and that his enthusiasm might feed into a conscientious overall approach to upkeep. Similarly, I try to look beyond the images of the boat. I think that you can tell a lot from the "housekeeping". My motivation is to try and avoid that dreadful moment when having just driven 200 miles you are presented with a lemon.
    A final word on " serviceable". A spray hood might be serviceable because it stops water from dripping down your neck even though it's window might be opaque, stitching undone and fastenings broken. "As new, very good, good, poor and needs replacing"might give much less scope for ambiguity. A final final word. If the information isn't in the ad I will ask for it so it will save brokers, owners and interested parties like me a lot of wasted time if it's provided in the first place.
    I think you have strange idea of what a fact is. That an item is usable and performs its basic function means, by definition, it is 'serviceable': i.e. (if true) is a fact. That some new owner would wish to replace it because a newer one would be more effective, pleasing or reliable does not mean it is not a fact.

    To give an example, the mainsail on my previous boat was tired, baggy, stained, probably 30 years old, and not capable of good performance, but that did not mean it was not serviceable. Indeed, it successfully propelled the boat in my ownership thousands of miles, including cruising most places from Devon to Norfolk, the Channel Islands, and the French north coast from Roscoff to Calais. That it was serviceable was a fact.

    Did it need replacing? That is not a matter of fact, but of judgement, taking into account, for example, owner's finances, desire for sailing performance, etc.

    I judged I couldn't afford a new one. Eventually I came across a second-hand replacement (amazing for a boat of which only a dozen were built). It was a fact it was at least 25 years old. Another fact was that it had never been used, and had spent its life in the loft of the owner's house! (When I took it to my local sailmaker, the senior hand doing a minor addition to the sail for me thought he had made it himself when he was a young apprentice there!)

    Many would judge that the 40 year old engine of my current boat (not to mention the boat itself!) ought to be replaced: it's hugely heavy, quite noisy, less reliable than a newer one, and very likely much nearer the end of its working life than the beginning. I judge that replacing it is beyond my means. The fact is it is serviceable, proven by it having propelled the boat hither and thither without breakdown, both locally and to France twice, over a couple of years and a few hundred hours.

    I agree with you that describing something as, variously, 'as new, very good, good [or] poor' is usually helpful (though don't assume such descriptions are necessarily accurate!). I cannot agree saying something is 'in need of replacing' reduces ambiguity: it is purely a matter of judgement, unless it doesn't work, in which case it's best described as 'non-functioning' or 'unserviceable'.

    I think you can safely assume that anything described as 'serviceable' is not going to be in great condition. You would then have to inspect it to decide whether your judgement is it should be replaced.

    I think you will be very disappointed if you think that brokers and selling owners care a fig about wasting your time. Most don't seem that bothered about wasting their own, or even selling the boat! There certainly are honourable exceptions, but in my experience (at the bottom end of the market) they are few and far between, especially among brokers.

    As Photodog says, 'Welcome to boat buying'!

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    On the Celtic Fringe
    Posts
    14,323

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by francophile51 View Post
    Why is it that so many for sale ads lack the key elemenwts such as engine hours, age and condition of sails, age of standing rigging and the type and vintage of the autopilot?
    Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

    I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

    I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.
    If I am looking for a specific sailing yacht and I find one with an engine total of 1000 hours and another with 5000 hours both with satisfactory maintenance records ,both performing satisfactorily and all other things being equal, I think that I would opt for the more lightly used one.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    915

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Why are engine hours important? How many hours has you motor car done? How was it driven?

    I have a VP 2002 that was fitted 35 years ago and works well. I know how many hours I've added but have no idea how many hours the previous owners did.
    *sticks oar in* Couple of reasons, it's the same for cars too. Engines are only designed to last for so many miles (in the case of boats that translates better to hours). The more engine hours the less life the engine probably has in it, if it has been 'reasonably' maintained. If maintenance is carried out to manufacturers spec, the engine should last way longer than prescribed. If the engine has not been maintained very well, you're probably looking at knocking a few years off that before a replacement is required. It may not be that much of a factor if you don't use the engine much.

    I am gonna assume you maintain your engine reasonably well? (Regular oil/filter changes? Check the pipes/belts and gaskets?). I don't recall volvo being known as 'reliable' though XD.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The land of the Medway
    Posts
    2,029

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by francophile51 View Post
    If I am looking for a specific sailing yacht and I find one with an engine total of 1000 hours and another with 5000 hours both with satisfactory maintenance records ,both performing satisfactorily and all other things being equal, I think that I would opt for the more lightly used one.
    Why?

    It's likely to be in worse condition with less hours as it's probably only been used for quick bursts in and out of marinas/moorings without ever reaching its operating temperature.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    38,100

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    I think most brokers would be less than keen to advertise a boat as having an engine of '2000 hours' or whatever if they were not completely convinced that was a prove-able fact.
    It's like the old days of clocking cars, these days if you buy a vehicle where the speedo has been replaced, you will see a huge disclaimer saying the mileage should not be relied on.
    A boat that's been through a handful of owners might have had the hour meter replaced. Or it might only have been fitted later in life, or it may not always have worked.
    To trust that a 10 year old engine was 'low hours' I'd want to see serious documentation. You cannot even rely on the ship's log, as boats can knock up a lot of hours idling or moving around the harbour for various reasons. It's amazing how many engine hours can rack up racing a sailing yacht.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    On the Celtic Fringe
    Posts
    14,323

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminescent View Post
    *sticks oar in* Couple of reasons, it's the same for cars too. Engines are only designed to last for so many miles (in the case of boats that translates better to hours). The more engine hours the less life the engine probably has in it, if it has been 'reasonably' maintained. If maintenance is carried out to manufacturers spec, the engine should last way longer than prescribed. If the engine has not been maintained very well, you're probably looking at knocking a few years off that before a replacement is required. It may not be that much of a factor if you don't use the engine much.

    I am gonna assume you maintain your engine reasonably well? (Regular oil/filter changes? Check the pipes/belts and gaskets?). I don't recall volvo being known as 'reliable' though XD.
    Do you have any evidence to support your comments?

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    915

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    The comments that Engines are only designed to last for so many miles? Take your pick, Rolls Royce, Royal Engineers, Ford, Toyota. It is a critical part of the design phase as is wear and tear. They expect an engine to last x amount of years/miles/running hours. They won't reveal what x is, for 'commercial' reasons but they'll happily confirm they do it. There are at least a couple of reasons behind that, firstly when to sell the next engine (I'm not cynical XD), safety (if the engine goes down it needs to do so relatively safely so other parts are built accordingly), to reduce cost/maximise profit, to support environmental reasons (Iron engine v other lighter materials).

    As for Volvo. Warranties direct, ask any trucker, Business Insider, Cruisers Forum ('The Green Death' I kid you not). They're very powerful, but reliability is...well, not so hot.

    *when compared to similar engines of similar size by other manufacturers.
    Last edited by Luminescent; 08-09-19 at 19:24.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    6,153

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by sailaboutvic View Post
    We brought and so,d boats through a broker and privately over 40 years .
    Take what you read in ads and brokers listing with a pinch of salt ,
    The last boat we sold , was sold mainly just on a video we made ,
    It was so long we had to spit it in three , every sq Yd long the hull , keel and in side including engine was filmed . Much better then photos , when the time comes to sell again I be going the same .
    Vic, I'm aware of the reasons you will prefer video, but I'm afraid that a video as the only description of a boat would totally preclude me from even looking - I hate being made to wait through a video when a text description and a few photos would do the job equally well; the difference is that still photos and text allow me to take in information at the rate I control; videos force me to take it at the rate the video allows. And I read and take in visual information at a rate much faster than a real-time video allows, and prefer non-linear presentation mode that allow me to skip backwards and forwards at will.

    I'd agree that a video might be useful addition to a sales description, as I am well aware that my attitude to video presentation of information is a minority one, but if it was the only presentation of information, I'd skip the ad.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    6,153

    Default Re: Yachts for Sale Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by PHN View Post
    YBut the same is valid for publicly available housing prices which does makes sense for understanding the housing market. In a similar manner you can assess price ranges of boats of a particular brand, size and age. So, yes IMHO it does help to have some understanding of realistic sales prices.
    But the value of a house has little relationship to the house itself; the land it is built on is (in many parts of the UK) much more valuable than the house; that's why prices vary so widely across the country. Way back, many people were caught out as follows - they relied on the fact that a lender was prepared to lend on the basis of its then private and undisclosed valuation survey as a proxy for the state of the property when buying a house, and were dismayed to find their house falling down or exhibiting major defects when they moved in. The reason was simple - the land was worth what the lenders were prepared to offer, so the house itself was irrelevant to the security offered to the lender. While the location of a boat does impact the price likely to be achieved, it isn't anything like as significant as the location of a house, where average property prices vary by a factor of maybe 6 between the highest and lowest valued areas. And, of course, boats are mobile!

    Just for example, I live in a modest brick built three bed town-house with a small garden near Ely. By selling it and buying property in my home town in the woollen district of Yorkshire, I could upgrade to a vast stone-built mansion with substantial grounds; the sort of house a mill-owner would have had. And that's not fantasy - I happened to check for specific properties a year ago, just for interest.
    Last edited by AntarcticPilot; 09-09-19 at 12:48.

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