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Thread: Coppercoat

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    Portugal
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    651

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    10 years down the road with CC. and very happy with it. Virtually no fouling on the hull at all each year, and my boat has not moved much this last couple of years. The fouling that is there just washes off after a couple of days out on a trip.
    Application is extremely important. Mixing well and regularly to keep the copper particles in suspension is important. Abrading with scotchbright did not work for me. Used 100 grit to give it a light sand by hand to expose the copper.
    If your application is poor and you have a rough finish, orange peel effect, then any sanding only takes the peaks off and leaves the troughs still covered with epoxy. Thats where the fouling will stick. Make sure the application finish is as as smooth as possible or you will be sanding lots of it off later to get it flat and expose the copper evenly.
    I would agree that the first year for me was a bit dodgy and i was unsure that i had made the right choice, but i believe it was just not abraded sufficiently. 10 years ago, scotchbright was the recommendation and that is not enough to get the epoxy coating off the copper particles in my opinion. After the first year I lifted out and sanded with 100. It's been working ever since.

    10 years down the road and quids in now. Very happy with the choice.
    Atlantic waters Portugal, Spain.
    Berthed in Portimao, river estuary, saltwater, not brackish except for when we get big rains. Not often.

    p.s.
    for those who are not sure whether to take the leap.
    why don't you get the local applier to put a few test areas on your hull at next lift out. a few small (6 inch squares) dotted around will test it in your area on your boat. Then you'll know for sure whether its worth spending your money after a year.
    Last edited by greeny; 20-09-19 at 08:30.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    6,162

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    The colour changes over time to a deep green - I do not know the chemistry but this is when it becomes effective. Also you then have to use the boat occasionally and the slime that forms washes off. Simples.
    +1. Coppercoat is nether more nor less effective than other antifouls; it's advantage is its long life. And as said above, regular use does help, along with an occasional scrub round the waterline. IT seems to have a deterrent action on the adhesion of growths to the hull, as well as biocidal effects. And as others have said, it takes time to activate; a reaction between the metallic copper and the salt water has to take place that usually results in the coating turning dark green.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Stirling, Scotland
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    I have it

    Hull was blasted October 16 then dried out over winter. Boat was out for a refit and didnít launch in 2017. We coated it on a warm day August 2017 and Launched April 2018. Application was a diy job done outdoors but we put lots of effort into making sure we mixed it very well and applied it within overcoating times.

    I rubbed it with 600 grit wet and dry prior to launch and it blackened over in 2 weeks. It lives on a mooring in the summer and pontoon berth in winter so is in all year round. We dried it out June this year and the hull was clean barring slime and the bronze rudder pintles which had lost their coating altogether.

    Iím convinced application is critical as is exposing the copper at launch. The Gareloch is a fairly high fouling area and my boat is not that highly used. it seems be working well for me so far. Iím not convinced that because you get a yard to do the job their quality control is always spot on as they may be chasing a quick turnaround. It works too well for too many people for it to be simply a good product / bad product debate.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,922

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Cuprous oxide is what repels the critters. So if it isnít green it canít work. Why it didnít go green is a mystery but if Ewan canít figure it no one can.

    As you can see from my pictures mine is very green and it definitely works.
    Cuprous oxide is red or yellow, not green (and cupric oxide is black). I have given several times here (as a former aquatic chemist, whose research addressed copper and other heavy metals) my opinion on the likely succession of corrosion compounds when copper is exposed to sea (and fresh) water.

    The green compound is likely a basic chloride (aka a hydroxy-chloride) - or perhaps a basic carbonate (aka a hydroxy-carbonate) if salinity is low. Cupric oxide might form prior to the basic chloride, but as it is less thermodynamically stable it will maintain a higher dissolved free copper ion level - so Iím not therefore fully convinced that its antifouling property would be less (other things being equal). But of course the green colour does show that the thermodynamically expected reactions are proceeding to completion, and IIRC Coppercoat say that the green compound is physically less stable and so sloughs off.

    Quite why RichardSís copper particles donít go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as Ď... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zoneí in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10938X04001350).

    I donít know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. Iím definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Home UK Midlands / Boat Croatia
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    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrozoan View Post
    Quite why RichardS’s copper particles don’t go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as ‘... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zone’ in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10938X04001350).

    I don’t know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. I’m definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.
    You raise some good points but I don't really know the answers. My marina (Kremik) is quite inset from the coast so one would think that it might be relatively warm. However, it is very deep with my finger berth at around 11m, so I don't think it's any warmer than the coastal Adriatic sea temperature in general. There is no river flowing into the marina so I would expect the salinity to be the same as the Adriatic in general.

    When I had the boat Coppercoated in the yard, the Manager advised me that it would not work properly in that marina although he couldn't offer any scientific explanation. However, he also said that it would increase the erosion of my saildrive and prop anodes and that certainly hasn't happened.

    The coating has been well applied and none has lifted off so I don't think any blame can be attached to the yard and when they sanded it down in May this year there was certainly plenty of copper on the hull, although I suspect that half of it has now gone. I have seen two other boats which have given up with Coppercoat in the yard and have never seen another boat having it applied nor a boat being lifted out which is already Coppercoated.

    I'm still undecided about what to do next Spring. I fear that the hull will be completely overgrown by then, but not the Trilux 33 coated saildrives or anodes which currently look fine. The anodes also won't need changing so I could leave the boat in the water until Spring 2021 before hauling out and anti-fouling and try and save some money. However, I wonder how slow she will be if the hull is really bad. I might go down, take her out for a spin, and if it's really bad, see if I can get a last minute lift and antifoul.

    The amount of stress and money that Coppercoat has cost me over the last few years is beyond belief.

    Richard

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    You raise some good points but I don't really know the answers. My marina (Kremik) is quite inset from the coast so one would think that it might be relatively warm. However, it is very deep with my finger berth at around 11m, so I don't think it's any warmer than the coastal Adriatic sea temperature in general. There is no river flowing into the marina so I would expect the salinity to be the same as the Adriatic in general.

    When I had the boat Coppercoated in the yard, the Manager advised me that it would not work properly in that marina although he couldn't offer any scientific explanation. However, he also said that it would increase the erosion of my saildrive and prop anodes and that certainly hasn't happened. ...

    Richard
    Thanks - it's an interesting issue. I hadn’t thought about elevated temperature as such, and the paper I cited was for a Cuban archipelago anyway. It’s some years since I looked at available stability diagrams for likely copper solids, but IIRC it seemed fairly clear that the ultimate, thermodynamically stable solid in seawater of typical salinity (say 30-35ppt) and pH (ca. 8.0) would be the basic copper chloride Cu2(OH)3Cl as that paper indicates - a basic carbonate (Malachite or Azurite in crystal form) would not IIRC form preferentially except at pretty low salinity, and they are green too anyway.

    An unusually low pH might militate against formation of either the basic chloride or a basic carbonate - but that also seems unlikely, in the absence of any reason to suspect it.

    Exposure to elevated levels of sulfide in the water - even perhaps just periodically - might also conceivably make a difference, given the strength of copper/sulfide interaction. I don’t get any impression from you of low oxygen/elevated sulfide conditions, but I suppose they might arise periodically in a deep basin subject to limited flow and occasonally very high algal growth, and might just be worth thinking about? (Sorry if that is way off beam, my not knowing of your local conditions, but I'm still grasping at straws in what seems a very odd situation!)

    All the best, whatever you decide.
    Last edited by Hydrozoan; 23-09-19 at 15:13.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    River Itchen, Southampton
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    7,214

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrozoan View Post
    Cuprous oxide is red or yellow, not green (and cupric oxide is black). I have given several times here (as a former aquatic chemist, whose research addressed copper and other heavy metals) my opinion on the likely succession of corrosion compounds when copper is exposed to sea (and fresh) water.

    The green compound is likely a basic chloride (aka a hydroxy-chloride) - or perhaps a basic carbonate (aka a hydroxy-carbonate) if salinity is low. Cupric oxide might form prior to the basic chloride, but as it is less thermodynamically stable it will maintain a higher dissolved free copper ion level - so Iím not therefore fully convinced that its antifouling property would be less (other things being equal). But of course the green colour does show that the thermodynamically expected reactions are proceeding to completion, and IIRC Coppercoat say that the green compound is physically less stable and so sloughs off.

    Quite why RichardSís copper particles donít go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as Ď... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zoneí in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10938X04001350).

    I donít know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. Iím definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.
    Happy to be corrected. Very informative indeed. At least I got the dark green is good bit right (I think?) . I have observed that any areas of light green come off quickly.
    Last edited by Elessar; 23-09-19 at 20:36.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    651

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Let me throw one in for consideration.
    A copper coated boat is normally one that doesn't need lift out, prep and anti foul for the next 10 yrs, assuming the copper coat is working.
    Most copper coat customers report it works well but there are a few isolated cases where it is clearly not working but reasons for this are not obvious.
    It is obviously not in the financial best interests of the appliers for copper coat to work well.
    Unless I was actually present at the mixing and application stages I may suspect they were responsible in some way.
    I am not making any accusations here, just looking for the genuine reason for failure.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Home UK Midlands / Boat Croatia
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    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by greeny View Post
    Let me throw one in for consideration.
    A copper coated boat is normally one that doesn't need lift out, prep and anti foul for the next 10 yrs, assuming the copper coat is working.
    Most copper coat customers report it works well but there are a few isolated cases where it is clearly not working but reasons for this are not obvious.
    It is obviously not in the financial best interests of the appliers for copper coat to work well.
    Unless I was actually present at the mixing and application stages I may suspect they were responsible in some way.
    I am not making any accusations here, just looking for the genuine reason for failure.
    Although I was present throughout the entire mixing and application period and everything was done correctly.

    Richard

  10. #50
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    Apr 2013
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    6,922

    Default Re: Coppercoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Happy to be corrected. Very informative indeed. At least I got the dark green is good bit right (I think?) . I have observed that any areas of light green come off quickly.
    My pleasure - though it’s too much chemistry for many tastes, I admit. Your observation about the shades of green is interesting, though whether they represent different copper corrosion compounds or perhaps just a difference in physical form of the basic copper chloride I do not know. (As I said, I recall Coppercoat’s site describing it as physically unstable and prone to slough off - which process might, I guess, produce as it happened a difference in its apparent colour.)

    Having thought more about Richard’s case, I did wonder about suspending (say) short lengths of freshly-abraded copper pipe on a weighted cord over the side, at different depths from the surface splash zone downwards, to try to confirm that they show the same colour variation with depth as on the hull. But that would best be done in summer when any differences in water quality with depth would be most evident - and Richard perhaps thinks it unhelpful, being evidently confident that the distribution of abraded copper on the hull is uniform with depth.

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