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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Eastern Atlantic seaboard
    Posts
    3,196

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    Sorry. But you are totally wrong.Try standing in front of a coroner with a silly grin on your face & telling him that a bloke was killed because you would not spend an extra £300-00. Falls from heights are common in many industries, not just on boats.

    Accidents do happen with halyards. I have had one, when a bosuns chair broke & nearly had another avoided by shear luck. I know of a chap who fell 10 metres from his mast onto the boom below. I know of a rigger who accidentally cut the halyard he was hanging from when drilling holes for a radar bracket. He had been a rigger most of his life.

    Accidents happen with all sorts of gear. It is all down to proper planning & I know that I would feel safer hanging from a crane. I have been up buildings of up to17 storeys in cradles, cherry pickers, cat ladders & cranes.
    I demur. Research the legal terms "reasonably practicable" and"practicable" then reconsider who is the one with a silly grin, albeit unjustified. I was a H&S manager in the Fire Service so have at least a little knowledge of this subject.


    https://simply-docs.co.uk/General-Du...d%20the%20risk.
    Last edited by Quiddle; 08-10-19 at 19:21.
    I'd rather be tethered to a pad eye than tethered to an iPad.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Southminster, essex
    Posts
    9,417

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    I would dispute that you are right.
    I still say that £ 300 does not constitute an "unreasonable sum". Try arguing otherwise with a judge & see how you get on.
    Try disputing the claim with an insurance Co. It will cost you a lot more than £ 300, I'll bet.
    It is all down to the fact that my wife does not understand me !!

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    A Member State of the European Union
    Posts
    6,336

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    I would dispute that you are right.
    I still say that £ 300 does not constitute an "unreasonable sum". Try arguing otherwise with a judge & see how you get on.
    Try disputing the claim with an insurance Co. It will cost you a lot more than £ 300, I'll bet.
    If I ask someone to quote for going up the mast and don't accept his quote, and he then offers to do it for less, and I accept his revised quotation; how am I liable if he is injured?

    Am I not entitled to rely on his professional expertise and assume he will carry out his work in a safe manner?

    I could go further and hold him liable for the expense I incur in repairing any damage caused by his fall and for cleaning the blood off my deck.
    "Brexit: like watching a library being burned down by people who can't read"

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Eastern Atlantic seaboard
    Posts
    3,196

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream believer View Post
    I would dispute that you are right.
    I'm sure you would but the terminology in the rest of of your response suggests you have failed to grasp the legal principles. The size of the financial outlay is is irrelevant. It is the proportionality of additional costs that count. That you conflate civil and statutory legal duties, discussing insurance payouts in the context of HASAWA, suggests a poor understanding of the subject.
    Last edited by Quiddle; 08-10-19 at 22:40.
    I'd rather be tethered to a pad eye than tethered to an iPad.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Argyll
    Posts
    6,366

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    I apologize to all those with wooden boats and screwed in chainplates, I presumed something stronger, all the boats I have owned have been grp and have had chainplates that would be immovable with normal spanners, I would not have bought them otherwise. None of the masts I have watched come down usually in club races involved failed chain plates.
    I used to race a Sigma 33 OOD in the days when the one design sails had to be dacron, to be competitive in all conditions we altered rake and mast bend frequently. I have encountered far more slack than too tight rigging on cruising boats and have been on such boats when the mast has been panting. I appreciate that the Sigmas were fractional rigs but only three of the boats I have owned were, the others were all masthead, easier to set up okay but still needed proper mast support. Amazing that, so far, we have managed to be fast in one design fleets without ever having a mast or rigging failure?
    Next time you are beating in a breeze have a look at your leeward shrouds, on a substantial number of boats they will be flapping about.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Fareham
    Posts
    6,657

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    Next time you are beating in a breeze have a look at your leeward shrouds, on a substantial number of boats they will be flapping about.
    I thought the rule of thumb was that they should stay tight until about 20 degrees of heel and then go slack.
    ۞

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,541

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    I apologize to all those with wooden boats and screwed in chainplates, I presumed something stronger, all the boats I have owned have been grp and have had chainplates that would be immovable with normal spanners, I would not have bought them otherwise. None of the masts I have watched come down usually in club races involved failed chain plates.
    But it's not only wooden boats/rigs which could be damaged by what you describe, it is most boats and certainly most modern boats.

    Tensioning a rig by method of harnessing the large forces arising on a beat is certainly possible, but it is tricky and sometimes counter-intuitive. E.g., wind up the backstay beating into 15kts+ (normal on fractional boats) and the leeward shrouds may loosen a little. So one removes this slack. Back at the dock or after turning off the wind one then loosens the backstay, thereby increasing the tension on the shrouds with multiple random effects on the uppers, diagonals, and lowers.

    I'd always recommend asking a rigger if in any doubt and certainly for more complex rigs.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Scotland.
    Posts
    14,352

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    But it's not only wooden boats/rigs which could be damaged by what you describe, it is most boats and certainly most modern boats. ......
    There is something amis here then. In the early 80's I worked full time for a sailing centre on the Clyde which had a significant racing slant to it's business model. I frequently took boats out where the rigging was tuned by sailing close hauled. This was by riggers and a well known sail maker based on the Clyde.
    "'...contradictions .... are deliberate exercises in doublethink." Orwell from 1984

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Scotland.
    Posts
    14,352

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by DJE View Post
    I thought the rule of thumb was that they should stay tight until about 20 degrees of heel and then go slack.
    Not slack. You might feel the tension has decreased compared to windward shrouds, but not slack.
    "'...contradictions .... are deliberate exercises in doublethink." Orwell from 1984

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,541

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by BlowingOldBoots View Post
    There is something amis here then. In the early 80's I worked full time for a sailing centre on the Clyde which had a significant racing slant to it's business model. I frequently took boats out where the rigging was tuned by sailing close hauled. This was by riggers and a well known sail maker based on the Clyde.
    But were these not masthead rigs with continuous rigs? If so, then nothing wrong with that if one knows what one is doing and a team including riggers and sailmakers most certainly would.

    But rigs and mast design has come on quite a way since then and fractional rigs with an element of pre-bend (ex backstay tension) are now common. Set-up properly these offer a significant improvement in performance, but the set-up can be trickier and require more dockside pre-tensioning amongst other differences.

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