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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
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    1,730

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by BlowingOldBoots View Post
    Yes, it is odd, now that you recall the boat, that its chain plates ripped out. As this was not common I suspect the oddness was from the people who were doing it.

    I think we need to understand that the mast is set up on shore, then tuned at sea. Even the Selden Manual discusses tuning at sea. I know for a fact that when the rigger detects something, the boat is not brought back to the pontoon to make adjustments, they are done at sea.

    Perhaps in your example, they did not know what they were doing.

    You're really just confirming the points I made further back up the thread. Don't set up a rig on the hard. The boat changes shape when the keel is hanging from it. Do it in the water.

    And don't adjust the rig at all if you don't know what you're doing. The nav archs that designed the boat chose a wire size for a reason. Tighten it to the correct extension. And stop. If a rigger suggests the tack/tighten method, don't use him. A Loos gauge is cheaper anyway.

    If you don't want to believe me, or Dom, ask the designer of your boat.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Scotland.
    Posts
    14,393

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by anoccasionalyachtsman View Post
    You're really just confirming the points I made further back up the thread. Don't set up a rig on the hard. The boat changes shape when the keel is hanging from it. Do it in the water.

    And don't adjust the rig at all if you don't know what you're doing. The nav archs that designed the boat chose a wire size for a reason. Tighten it to the correct extension. And stop. If a rigger suggests the tack/tighten method, don't use him. A Loos gauge is cheaper anyway.

    If you don't want to believe me, or Dom, ask the designer of your boat.
    Correct, I should have said set up at the pontoon, in the water. However, tuning at sea, underway, is a fact. I would need to be clairvoyant to talk to Peter Brett.
    "'...contradictions .... are deliberate exercises in doublethink." Orwell from 1984

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    1,730

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by BlowingOldBoots View Post
    Correct, I should have said set up at the pontoon, in the water. However, tuning at sea, underway, is a fact. I would need to be clairvoyant to talk to Peter Brett.
    I'm clearly not going to convince you, but I've rigged boats in the presence of their designers and we did it by tension at the pontoon. Most of these were fractional, swept spreader, so a bit of adjusting was done to get the prebend, but staying withing the 15% on the tighter of the shrouds. These were all new boats, and as the wire 'settled' and the boat's shape changes over its early life the rig will need re-tensioning, but again, by measurement, not by how tight or loose the lee shrouds are.

    Edit. And fair point on Mr Brett, and come to think of it, one of the designers I mentioned above is no longer available for consultation either.
    Last edited by anoccasionalyachtsman; 09-10-19 at 21:53.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Argyll
    Posts
    6,369

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Nothing more futile than getting in to an argument with an 'expert' on the internet.
    A lot of my tuning knowledge came from the rigger who was part of the crew but the most influential was the late Hugh Ennis who was coach to the BYC team who borrowed my (quite new to me) boat to compete in the under 18 crewed inter club knockout competition back in the mid 80s, Hugh's boats were always fast, Moonlighter, a modified Hydro to which he added a sugar scoop rarely failed to win. When setting Signet up for the competition he applied torque with tommy bars as my spanners were not long enough. Hugh was a structural engineer.
    He would never have tolerated slack leward shrouds, its simple geometry, the shrouds are slack, the mast has moved the slot is changed the boat is slower or probably points lower.
    Perhaps its just geography that makes rig tuning more intuitive up here.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,550

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    Nothing more futile than getting in to an argument with an 'expert' on the internet.
    A lot of my tuning knowledge came from the rigger who was part of the crew but the most influential was the late Hugh Ennis who was coach to the BYC team who borrowed my (quite new to me) boat to compete in the under 18 crewed inter club knockout competition back in the mid 80s, Hugh's boats were always fast, Moonlighter, a modified Hydro to which he added a sugar scoop rarely failed to win. When setting Signet up for the competition he applied torque with tommy bars as my spanners were not long enough. Hugh was a structural engineer.
    He would never have tolerated slack leward shrouds, its simple geometry, the shrouds are slack, the mast has moved the slot is changed the boat is slower or probably points lower.
    Perhaps its just geography that makes rig tuning more intuitive up here.

    When you say the mast has moved, what you mean, esp on on a fractional boat, is that the mast has deflected as it is designed to do. I'm not saying that the advice you gave in post #30 and later is bad for a single spreader masthead rig. But the boats you reference are all 30-40 years old now and a lot has changed since then.

    It's no longer simple geometry as masts start to bend on a swept-spreader setup, for one no longer has simple 2-D triangles, but complex 3-D spherical geometry where the maths and design issues can be significant. That's why two years ago when I wanted to change something the rigger had to talk to both Harken and Farr Yacht Design before proceeding.

    Don't set a rig up right and all may seem well for a while, but trouble will come in many sizes with cracked spreaders, damaged spreader roots, broken masts, snapped stays, or even a damaged boat being examples.

    Which is why I agree with anoccasionalyachtsman that on many/most rigs it is imperative to commence with a carefully worked up in-spec initial setup and then fine tune under sail, if and only IF one knows what one is doing.

    Else that £150-300 for a rigger may be money well very spent.
    And that's my tuppence worth
    Last edited by dom; 10-10-19 at 08:50.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    776

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiddle View Post

    ...Incidentally, do you suggest that the vast majority of riggers who do ascend masts on the vessels own systems are breaking the law?
    It's possible to legally ascend a mast on the boat's gear, but I'll suggest a lot of people do it illegally.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Me - Zumerzet Boat - Wareham
    Posts
    12,302

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Out of curiosity I googled Yacht Rigger Training Course. It turns out that there isn't one! Only courses for Riggers in the Entertainment Industry.
    From RYA (careers):
    Did you have to have any specialist knowledge, do any specialist courses / training to get the job?A good knowledge of sailing really helps. There is no course or qualification for yacht riggers currently, I learnt on the job from being paired with an experienced rigger – it takes about three years on the job to become a good rigger. I have completed a Banksmans course that allows me to direct crane operatives and sling loads ready for lifting.
    MontyMariner.co.uk
    Facilitated by AWESEM WP Agency

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Southminster, essex
    Posts
    9,444

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by penberth3 View Post
    It's possible to legally ascend a mast on the boat's gear, but I'll suggest a lot of people do it illegally.
    I would respectfully suggest that you should have said " in an unsafe manner" rather than illegally. Illegally suggests that they have gone up there to nick the windex or something. Although, thinking about it, in some areas that may be more appropriate
    It is all down to the fact that my wife does not understand me !!

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    635

    Default Re: Rigger wants to use crane for rig inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInBed View Post
    Out of curiosity I googled Yacht Rigger Training Course. It turns out that there isn't one! Only courses for Riggers in the Entertainment Industry.
    From RYA (careers):
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
    That's quite amazing, considering the breadth and depth of the subject.
    In fact there are so many kinds of rig that one person could not possibly have a good working knowledge of all of them.
    Any individual rigger may have a specific speciality, an area of expertise, but might not even be able to name the parts of an unfamiliar type of rig.
    Any rigger who disagrees with this is being silly, so ask a rigger what their particular interest is. If you have a very popular, conventional yacht with well known problems and solutions, which has been raced and cruised over the years, most riggers will have a fair knowledge.( Example might be a Sigma 33. )
    If you have something even slightly rare, only 10% of riggers may even have laid hands on one. Exotica, you need a specialist who's studied the exact type of boat, recently.
    Examples might be, Hugo Boss riggers don't wear canvas smocks stained with Stockholm Tar, they are hi-tec IT technicians. The guy making hundreds of immaculate 3-strand splices, 100' up the Kruzenstern's masts has only seen dyneema or carbon fibre in a perfume advertisement. My boat's rig has been standard for around for 250+ yrs, and I 've heard some frankly weird opinions from professionals more familiar with bermudan..
    A course would be a great idea, I wonder what the syllabus would be as it's such a big area, students might have to do a general foundation year, then choose specialities. ( Judging by the above thread, an onslaught of health'n'safety woukd be inevitable..)
    Foid for thought anyway.
    "Now shall the gentleman haul and draw with the mariner"
    John Hawkins

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