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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
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    9,759

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Loganair are introducing electric aircraft on their Orkney routes.

    If planes can use batteries, surely ferries can?

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Home - Sothampton, Boat - Gosport
    Posts
    10,292

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJE View Post
    Despite the large "Hybrid" logos on the side of Victoria of Wight the system boils down to some large batteries which allow them to shut down the diesel engines in port.
    I rather thought that might be the case.

    Hydrogen production from methane seems to me to be a daft way of producing a green fuel as it produces CO and CO2 and I agree that it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to burn fossil fuel to electrolyse water but, if you've got a surplus of electricity from wind or tidal power, it makes a lot of sense to use that surplus to produce hydrogen.
    Steve
    Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Me - Zumerzet Boat - Wareham
    Posts
    12,269

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    but, if you've got a surplus of electricity from wind or tidal power, it makes a lot of sense to use that surplus to produce hydrogen.
    As I understand it they have to throttle back on electricity production when it's windy because the underwater cables that transfer it to the mainland grid can't handle the capacity!
    Using the surplus to produce hydrogen has got to be a winner.
    MontyMariner.co.uk
    Facilitated by AWESEM WP Agency

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Isle of Eigg
    Posts
    7,448

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInBed View Post
    The use of hydrogen directly injected into the fuel supply of one of the ferries, has now been funded by Innovate UK. The HyDIME project (Hydrogen Diesel Injection in a Marine Environment), which formally started on 1 August, has been granted £430,000 to design and integrate a hydrogen diesel dual fuel injection system. The 12-month project is intended to de-risk the technology, which will be globally unique during the life of the project.
    See HERE
    Ok, but only a 20 to 30% reduction in diesel use... Thats not going to be enough. However I'm not sure how much real technical information can be gathered from an article that states hydrogen will be injected into the air-fuel mixture of a diesel engine...

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    East coast UK. Mostly. Sometimes the Philippines
    Posts
    9,759

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInBed View Post
    As I understand it they have to throttle back on electricity production when it's windy because the underwater cables that transfer it to the mainland grid can't handle the capacity!
    Using the surplus to produce hydrogen has got to be a winner.
    Long ago, Norsk Hydro used hydroelectric power to make ammonia and ammonium and potassium nitrate fertiliser, the process was first developed using an electric arc and then converted to the Haber process in the 1930s, but it was rendered uneconomical by the availability of cheap natural gas in the 1970s.

    Ammonia is a reasonably practical way to store hydrogen.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,644

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJE View Post
    According to the OP's link there is a surplus of renewable energy on Orkney ...
    Yes, they've tried a whole series of schemes to get rid of it by producing hydrogen - the first Orkney hydrogen car is in the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. It is still a terrible idea. They would be far greener to send their surplus electricity down the wires south than mess around with hydrogen. Which is inefficient to produce, inefficient to use and extremely difficult to store. Bah, humbug.
    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SW Scotland
    Posts
    19,644

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stemar View Post
    ... if you've got a surplus of electricity from wind or tidal power, it makes a lot of sense to use that surplus to produce hydrogen.
    It really doesn't. Unless, perhaps, every last watt of energy in the national grid is coming from renewable supplies, in which case you might as well throw your spare away. We are a long way away from that, though.

    Electrolysis of water on any scale is generally about 80% efficient. Hydrogen fuel cells are around 50% efficient, if you're lucky and any sort of hydrogen-powered engine is even worse. So at the very best, the round trip from electricity to hydrogen and back loses around 60% of the energy you started with. The National Grid is about 92% efficient, so it's far, far, far better to sell the surplus electricity to someone else who wants it.

    South-West Scotland produces far more renewable electricity than we use, though both the Galloway Hydros scheme and the windfarms which continue to spring up. When the hydros were built the main grid route from England to Glasgow was diverted away from Beattock (the M74's route) and through Galloway instead so that surplus power could be taken where it was needed.

    "Seamen are always wanting to do things the proper way; and I like to do them my way."

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Fareham
    Posts
    6,657

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Direct carbon capture looks like a better use of surplus renewable energy.
    https://www.greenbiz.com/article/con...lization-costs

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Isle of Eigg
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    7,448

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Yes, they've tried a whole series of schemes to get rid of it by producing hydrogen - the first Orkney hydrogen car is in the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. It is still a terrible idea. They would be far greener to send their surplus electricity down the wires south than mess around with hydrogen. Which is inefficient to produce, inefficient to use and extremely difficult to store. Bah, humbug.
    The wires are full.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Isle of Eigg
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    7,448

    Default Re: HyDIME - The way for the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumbleDuck View Post
    Hydrogen fuel cells are around 50% efficient, if you're lucky
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60319918308371
    The lowest value of the maximum efficiency is found to be 79.3%, 75.7%, and 82.1% for hydrogen-oxygen, hydrogen-air and methane-air fuel cells

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