raggies

**hlb** · 07-06-05, 11:57

Quite right. But when kids are playing football in the street, if a car comes along. They are expected to stop playing and let it pass. Or does the car driver have to wait till half time!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

**tcm** · 07-06-05, 12:05

You seem determined not to understand this issue, fireball, and use one-off examples from the highways code - which is not really relevant.

Rule 9b says that a boat over 20m in a narrow channel should not be impeded. Yeah, that means that in the first instance, the smaller vessel regardless of sail or power must keep out its way. So, the kids on optimists or bigger kids on other dinghies should be told to keep out of the way of the big boats/steamers /whatever. They'd keep out ofd the way of a ferry, or a really massive boat wouldn't they? Well, the definition of big in this instance is "over 20 metres"

But of course, other rules mean that a safe speed bearing in mind the conditions and so on, and there's no excuse for a collision etc. and the optimists etc issue is especially valid. But many sailors (don't worry, you aren't alone) seem determined to lean on these as heavily as possible, playing dowen 9b - and they will succeed and should not come to grief. Knowledge of 9b will mean it will be safer for all.

**Its_Only_Money** · 07-06-05, 12:25

I've made the point on other threads that dinghy racing is an environment where they actively apply the col regs for tactical advantage eg when heading for the windward mark aiming to be the vessel arriving on starboard tack to force any on port to give way, this general attitude then follows some helms through their sailing careers into larger vessels of all persuasions, both mobo and yacht.....

**jfm** · 07-06-05, 12:27

Um there are some odd facts flying about here. In many threads that have covered this sort of stuff before I think moboers have a bit unfairly claimed their boats are unmanoeuverable at very low speeds. A typical middle of road mobo such as Planty's Sealine frexample most certainly can be turned in lots less than a 90foot or whatever turning circle. It can be turned in its own length, made to move sideways as if it had bow and stern thrusters (even tho it doesn't have a stern thruster). He said it can only do those things from a dead stop. I disagree. If trudging along at say 6-8 knots it can instantly turn in much less than 90 or 100 foot circle. And anyway it can be brought to a dead stop in a very short length.

But moboers have to live with the fact (not that it's any big deal....) that many ragboat skippers seem to believe power always gives way to sail. I remeber frexample trudging along at about 7-8 knots off Cowes supervising a newbie at the helm on a straight course and a fast sailboat came from the distance toward my stern quarter from abaft of me on a beam reach at 9-10 knots and the wafi yelled at me to get out of the way. He probably knew the overtaking rule if we'd had a calm conversataion about it afterwards but in the heat of the moment he seemed only to recall selectively the power-gives-way rule

Anyway, this has been an enlightening thread re the specifics of the 9b rule and the >20m boat thing. There are some clear advantages to having a 20m boat :-)

**fireball** · 07-06-05, 13:10

I do believe I understand the issue, but cannot recall ever dinghy racing in the path of a vessel that is >20m (that is over ~60 foot isn't it?).
The issue that seems to be raised is that some sub 20m powered vessels believe themselves to be constrained - but I would disagree that the vessel is constrained, but would be willing to understand that the helm may be constrained by his/her ability.

**hlb** · 07-06-05, 13:55

From the fly bridge of even a sub 20 metre boat the whole senario of umpteen racing dinghys can be observed.

Having raced sailing dinghys I am quite aware that observation is some what limited to occasional glimses as to what lies ahead.

The cruiser may well be aware, that in order to give way to your sail boat, he emmediatly puts some other sail boat in danger. Even by stopping. Turning might well no be an optio for fear of hitting others.

Back to the 20 metre arguement. Does it realy matter what size the other boat is, if your trying to forse him out of the channel and maybe into to shallow waters??

**fireball** · 07-06-05, 14:06

Having raced sailing dinghys I am quite aware that observation is some what limited to occasional glimses as to what lies ahead.
Then I'm glad I don't race with you ... I like to know where the next mark is! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

We must be talking about completly different senarios where your in a much tighter channel than I was working on ...

**tcm** · 07-06-05, 14:20

It's a bit more than 60 feet but whatever. At least quite few of the skippers have demonstrated they know at least three occassions when sail gives way to power. INteresting to see if anyone in your club can do the same.

**duncan** · 07-06-05, 14:25

I think hlb was making a reference to the somewhat limited forward visibility on many small sailing craft that's all.

As and when you get engulfed by a dingy fleet I think everyone can understand it when the helm of a large craft simply holds their course at a couple of knots and looks straight ahead, possibly with the odd shrug........I for one have certainly found myself unable to manoevre safely not because of the water depth but because any sudden movement will catch out one dingy somewhere!

All the above accepts that if possible you shouldn't get in that situation of course but it can happen!

**fireball** · 07-06-05, 14:37

I would hope they do know ... as we have a few YMs amoungst our fleet (no - I'm not included).
Interestingly though, it isn't the powerboats we have most issues with .. its other racing boats !!
There is one local by-law that all asymetics shall give way to all vessels - mainly cos when they are going down wind at umpteen knots nobody knows where they are going to end up ...