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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,903

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    If what you're suggesting is true, presumably boats are significantly cheaper already in countries where the derogation has already gone? Are boats in spain (for instance) significantly cheaper than here because of the total cost of ownership issue you highlight?

    Rick

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Boat - Clyde, Home - Overlooking the Tamar
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Fair point, but I think there is evidence at present that boats sell for more in the uk than they do in the Med. I've heard of people bringing boats back to the UK for sale to realise a higher price.

    The theory can only have general applicability, there will always be people who have sufficient disposable income to ignore the "total cost of ownership"; indeed my neighbour in the marina has just purchased a Princess 58 and I doubt he is concerned at the £3k refuel cost!

    rob

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    ked into poverty by children
    Posts
    8,517

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Unfortunately your argument still panders to the idea of the well heeled with £100K plus boats where the cost of fuel is never a large proportion of the total cost of ownership. The people who would be totally shafted are those in smaller, cheaper boats who use them a fair bit. Make the boat value £20K and 600 gallons annual usage and look at the change. That is why the drogation needs to stay. The big boats will just move a bit less, the smaller ones may not move at all...

    And lots of those smaller boats are owned by poor folk who work every hour God sends to be able to afford them at all, they don't have time to sail anywhere very much.
    Two beers please, my friend is paying.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Boat - Clyde, Home - Overlooking the Tamar
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    No, I don't think my argument panders to the well heeled rich boater at all. The £100k example is simply a "stick in the sand"; a point around which one can illustrate the theory. The theory itself is directly applicable to lower value craft - as illustrated by the pricing of Phil's £30k craft and the "whole craft discount" of 28%.

    Generally the correlation of fuel cost to capital cost, though not perfect, is reasonable. I've had a £40k nimbus 30 footer and a £130k targa 39 - the latter used a good deal more fuel than the former - hence the broad applicability of the theory in the impact on the owners wallet.

    Agreed that the disposal income of the well heeled boater will be greater than the folk at the bottom end - but don't forget that the well heeled also have mortgages of £500k, maybe marine mortgages of £200k, they have school fees and expensive cars etcetera. People tend to live to their means and whilst their boating budget will be greater then many people's it again will be proportionate to boat value.

    rob

    rob

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    1,580

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Hi
    Have just been through this myself. Had a V8 petrol before that cost a fortune to run but was cheap to buy. It was also very unreliable, which was my main reason for changing. I bought a diesel (S24/KAD32) on ther basis that:
    a) Diesels are much more reliable than petrols - important in a single engined boat. Remember your life may one day depend on that reliability!!
    b) Petrol is easy to get on the south coast, but try getting the stuff in France... or the west country.
    c) As with cars, a good diesel will always do more MPG than petrol. I'm getting nearly 5nmpg... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
    d) Diesel is safer.. never liked the idea of 200l of petrol under the helm going through a carb!

    I am prepared to accept that I may lose some value if/when red goes, but figure that it won't be a huge amount of the value of my boat (£36k) in comparison to all the other costs I have to pay. I think the other advantages of diesel will always make them more desirable than an equivalent petrol, IMHO, and I wouldn't go back to petrol.

    Now is a good time of year to buy with the end of the season only a few weeks ago - any dealer with lots of stock will be keen to do a deal.
    Adrian is searching for his next boat....

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    hamble/moraira/deauville
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Phil,at boatmatch we charge 3% to the seller when sold, and publish our full brokerage rate in all of our ads...Give us a call,and we'll try to give you some advice on the motor boat market as we see it.In our opinion pricing is more related to condition than fuel costs.........Tim Robinson...Director Boatmatch.com

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Rob
    Thanks for that,, interesting calculation and I guess when dealing with Brokerís Stock and not Brokerís selling on behalf of owners is about right for a couple of moboís Iíve seen recently anyway.
    I suppose I am trying to predict the future really, itís my first boat that I will have sole ownership of which obviously means all financial responsibilities are entirely mine.
    I would like to think that in about 2 or 3 years I could sell it and get something bigger perhaps, so in order to do that I am trying to limit my losses this time around.

    Alternately I just want get out on the water and after listening to you guyís and seeing for myself some instabilities within the market concerning moboís, unless a good deal comes up between now and xmas I think Iíll start looking at what I can get in the Yachting world for 35k. It may be a short term solution for me and they all seem to have Diesel engine fitted so should be easier sell, which means in 2yrs sell it and get a Diesel mobo.

    Phil

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Hi
    Iíve no doubt that Diesel is the future and as I wonít to sell the Boat in about 2 or 3 years time to get something bigger its what I should be looking for I know.

    But in the present climate with this Red Diesel Issue hanging over us I just cannot bring my self to spend so much extra money just because itís a Diesel. I mean we are talking 6k to 8k difference for the same boat; I could almost buy a Petrol Sealine 24 Vessel and fit a brand new Diesel replacement engine, its ridiculous. With regard to Petrol Reliability problems could it be Injection versions are more reliable then Carbs.

    Itís a no win situation really financially,, because if Diesel vessels reduce in value closing the gap between Petrol & Diesel then no one will wonít to buy Petrol vessels,, when they can get a Diesel for a bit more,, so Petrol Vessels will get even cheaper because no one will wonít them...
    Oh my God when will all endÖ

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Thames
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Not sure I agree with this.

    Comparing UK with Holland where white diesel is the norm albeit cheaper (but not that much) than we will end up paying, the average boat prices (at least for the kind of boat I am looking at) are higher than the UK.

    Therefore not sure there will be such a big swing as you suggest.

    Also variables like the real juice guzzlers maybe depreciate more [img]/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] and the displacement boats hardly any effect [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

    I think the whole thing is unknown and not sure that "theories" achieve anything other than scaremongering.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Boat - Clyde, Home - Overlooking the Tamar
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

    Agree entirely that the whole subject is a black art - as is all economics! (As G Brown is finding out with tax revenues falling way behind prediction) Nevertheless I think some thinking on the subject is helpful as at least it is a framework around which to have a discussion. I'm sure I'm not exactly right with my theory; it's just my best assessment of the situation and the post that started this was asking for opinions.

    I think that you are absolutely correct with your displacement boat theory. I'd be very happy buying a Linssen or the suchlike - I think demand will increase for displacement boats. In fact when I sold out of my Targa I did seriously consider a displacement mobo but decided to try sail. I personally think the medium term future of leisure motorboating is in displacement boats as the fuel consumption rate is so much more sensible. I expect that is why dutch mobo's are holding their price?

    rob

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