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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Thames
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    So what have all the boat owners with Perkins engines in Holland and Germany been running on all these years? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,738

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    I spoke directly to perkins about changing from red diesel to ULS in older perkins engines...

    'The lower sulphur content could be an issue with the seals in your injection pump.
    The seal swell with low sulpur fuel is less which may cause leakage in your pump. It may be advisable to have the injection pump reworked and all the seals changed if red diesel is no longer available. '

    So if you have been using white all the time you are ok, cos the seals are 'used' to it. Problem is us, who have been running red for years - then all of a sudden move over to ULS diesel.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Thames
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    Well thats not so bad, I can accept that I might have to get the pumps fixed as a one off but once fixed they will be OK.

    But thats not the same as "steverow" was saying which was that it would be a permanent problem, one thing that is really getting me down is all these "Doom and Gloom" merchants.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,738

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    Think i will check with perkins again, just to make sure - they certainly did not say you needed special seals or they wont last long.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    There are two issues = one the collection method and that has been dealt with the other is the absurdity of the commercial exemptions.

    If road fuel prices were the same as the rest of Europe and marine fuel was the same that is another story but that is not going to happen. Marine fuel may have its own tax band yes - we do not know yet but adding another 25p per litre tax to red is a significant increase in cost on top of an already rapidly escalating cost and that will have a major effect on power boating.
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    S. Yorkshire / Devon
    Posts
    2,716

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    I don't think they are going to ban red diesel, only the tax break it enjoys.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Brecon, Wales
    Posts
    7,165

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    If it goes ahead - they will to ban it use for non-commercial pleasure boats. Red itself would still be available for commercial use.

    The option is to use red but put the full UK tax on it and allow the commercial users to claim back the duty. However, there would be little sense in this because there is no way of checking legal use - so it would be logical to have a new class of fuel or just white diesel for non-commercial pleasure boats. leaving red for commercial users only. Therefore Steverow's point is valid and red would in effect be banned for pleasure boats.
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    My Multihull Forum

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,025

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    "The option is to use red but put the full UK tax on it and allow the commercial users to claim back the duty. However, there would be little sense in this because there is no way of checking legal use "

    Gludy,

    If they had a claim back system then they wouldnt have to check legal use, the hoops you would have to jump through to make a claim would identify you as a bon-fide user. I suspect they would make it almost impossible to make a claim - just like Customs do now when small businesses try to reclaim vat on petrol for delivery vans.

    Copy invoices to charterers
    Passage plan posted to MCA
    Fuel Invoice
    Ships log verified by port control/marina berthing master/customs/immigration

    The opportunities for tying us up in knots are endless.

    The mechanisum for this nightmare has alrready been implemented, buy over 100litres today and customs are informed of the boat name, owner name and address and home port.

    But as many other posters have pointed out there is no logic or rationality in any of this, its a another example of the UK Government gold plating an EU directive.

    set of oars anyone?

    gasp work beckons!! (Kim sorry about useing foul language on the forum)

    David

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,025

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    "The option is to use red but put the full UK tax on it and allow the commercial users to claim back the duty. However, there would be little sense in this because there is no way of checking legal use "

    Gludy,

    If they had a claim back system then they wouldnt have to check legal use, the hoops you would have to jump through to make a claim would identify you as a bon-fide user. I suspect they would make it almost impossible to make a claim - just like Customs do now when small businesses try to reclaim vat on petrol for delivery vans.

    Copy invoices to charterers
    Passage plan posted to MCA
    Fuel Invoice
    Ships log verified by port control/marina berthing master/customs/immigration

    The opportunities for tying us up in knots are endless.

    The mechanisum for this nightmare has alrready been implemented, buy over 100litres today and customs are informed of the boat name, owner name and address and home port.

    But as many other posters have pointed out there is no logic or rationality in any of this, its a another example of the UK Government gold plating an EU directive.

    set of oars anyone?

    gasp work beckons!! (Kim, sorry about using foul language on the forum)

    David

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Thames
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

    Hi

    The following is the lowdown from Perkins themselves:-

    regards

    Mike

    <span style="color:blue">
    Red Diesel is the same as White diesel, a red dye is used to show it has been purchased for off highway use (ie less tax).

    No Perkins marine engine has ever been designed to run on heating fuel oil, they will and people do use alternative oils but in doing so what ever savings are made using a cheaper fuel is offset by premature wear on engine componants and reduced engine life.

    Your engine handbook will list all recommended fuel types.

    Below is a copy of Perkins policy on fuel types.

    Trust this assists

    Kind Regards

    Steve Butcher

    Good fuel characteristics are essential for the efficient operation of fuel injection equipment and due to this directly affect the operation of the engines to which the equipment is fitted.

    Totally Acceptable Fuel Types
    N590 Diesel fuel types – Auto / C0 / C1 / C2 / C3 / C4
    BS2869 Class A2
    ASTM D 975-92 Class 1, 2 and 3 &amp; special grade 3
    ( Note : where low sulphur or low aromatic fuels are used it is important that lubricity additives are used &amp; the fuel is acceptable to the lubricity tests described above )

    Fuel types that MAY lead to a reduced product life
    ASTM D975-91 Class 1-1DA
    JP7, MIL T38219 XF63
    NATO F63

    Fuel types that WILL lead to reduced product life ( Only acceptable if used with additives )
    AVTUR FS11, NATO F34, JP8, MIL T83133, DEF STAN 91-87, DERD 2463,
    AVCAT FS11, NATO F44, JP5, MIL T5624, DERD 2452, AVTOR,
    NATO F35, JET A1, DEF STAN 91-91, DERD 2494
    ACAT, NATO F43,
    JET A ( ASTM D1655 )
    ASTM D399 Kerosene

    Fuel types NOT ACCEPTABLE with or without additives
    AVTAG
    AVTAG FS11, NATO F40, JP4, DERD 2545
    JET B ( ASTM D1655 )
    BS MA100
    JIS K2203 No.2

    Bio Fuels

    Bio diesel - R.M.E. fuel can be used in Perkins direct injection diesel engines. However, the following conditions apply:
    · The fuel must comply with DIN V 51606 (or other approved national standards as they evolve).
    · It can only be used in mixtures of up to 5% RME in mineral oil diesel fuel. No mixture above 5% is acceptable, as this can result in filter blocking.
    · Fuel storage must be to recommended standards, to avoid the absorption of water, and degradation. In any event, storage should not exceed 12 months. Fuel degradation, if allowed to occur, can result in the corrosion of metallic components, and the premature failure of seals.
    · RME is a powerful solvent. Damage may occur if it comes into contact with paint work.
    </span>

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