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  1. #91
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    3,483

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    For many of us the cost of mooring the boat in a marina and maintaining it are more significant than fuel.

    Could you please tell me what the comparative cost, between a cat & a similar sized monhull, of mooring, lift out and antifouling would be?

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    7,163

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    Please do not ask him that otherwise you will find he will campaign for an environmental paint tax that will treble the price of antifoul overnight!!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    http://www.multihulls4us.com

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    17,821

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    Didn't I read somewhere that the environmental effect of burning fuel a boat does in it's lifetime is less than the enviromental impact that making and then scrapping it has ... or was that cars?

    Eitherway ... quite happy to save fuel ... but cats don't suit everyone, and I don't agree with the "Tax it to reduce usage" ethos that obviously doesn't work - just look at car usage ... is that going down?

    Anyway .... bother cats ... use a stick and rag ... much more enviromentally friendly .... (I'm sneaking back to the other forums now ... 'onest! )

  4. #94
    Cheery is online now Registered User
    Location : Derbyshire
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    4,755

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    "Current tax policy is a big problem. Big monohulls are incredibly cheap to run because diesel tax is 5p a litre instead of 47p."

    As most people only possess 1 or 2 diesel vehicles at home and unless members on here are owners of haulage companies, any saving of diesel duty on road vehicles, would be wiped out massively by extra duty on boating fuel.IMHO.
    Oaf Orfe Hooks Hake

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    7,163

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    That is true but reducing road fuel would lower a lot of costs verywhere .... sorry - should lower a lot of costs everywhere! Never the less you are still probably right.

    If red goes we would not only have the highest road fuel tax in Europe but also probbly the highest marine fuel tax in Europe - I think its the injustice of this double whammy when the directive is al about harmonisation that gets to people!

    People would not feel to bad if everything was the same as the rest of Europe.

    The situation today is that with less than a year to go this government has not applied to extend the derogation .... they are just in state of mind where they might apply!!!!
    Paul
    St Francis 50 Cat
    http://www.multihulls4us.com

  6. Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    Well Gentlemen,

    I said I was busy yesterday, and I was. Now I have a moment to reflect on your comments and debating tactics.

    I was perfectly happy to have a bit of abuse initially because it takes people time to get used to a new idea, however valid, especially when they know that their position does not really make sense and are hoping no one will notice or do anything about it. However, having a quick look through the thread really does disgust me.

    What we have is a couple of playground bullies driving debate out through repetitive abuse. There are continual demands for "the question to be answered" despite the fact that the question is usually unclear, is changed regularly or is answered regularly. Whatever attempts I make to debate my position are shouted down with more abusive postings.

    Then, when I state after due warning that I have other things to do than look at their infantile posturings for the rest of the day, I give rise to another accusation - that I have run away from them or escaped.

    Gentlemen, I am not afraid of you. I know what playground bullies are like - hard as a brick hammer. You threaten me and my company with being referred to the Advertising Standards Authority. Well, go for it and I will whip up a coalition of campaign groups to debate my comments that the polluter boat industry and their fellow-travellers will regret. As I say, let's have a debate in public. Let's let some sunshine in.

    You abuse me from behind your keyboards. I am happy to meet each of you face to face. You can then type up your comments on our meeting on a discussion board to your heart's content - if you feel like it.

    I am accused of acting out of self-interest because I have invested in green boat building. I actually think the whole of the UK market can be successful in developing and marketing the designs and technology behind new, fast, green, boats with a "feel-good factor". The current tax rate on leisure diesel needs to be adjusted to a sensible level to bring this about. I believe the current tax level is too low. Yes, I do.

    You think you can take a cheap "man of the people" shot at my involvement in business and not be called on it. Actually, the whole of human society and development is driven by enlightened self-interest whether expressed in individual or collective-commercial form. Please read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" for more on this if you are interested. I apologise to you for nothing in developing our green boats or marketing them partly through highlighting the problem of an inappropriate and out-dated tax regime.

    I am asked whether I accept that putting up the tax on diesel for leisure boats will raise costs for leisure cat users who use diesel. This is a childish question as it is self-proving. A favourite trick of show trial prosecutors. The answer is that I do accept that and believe it is fair enough. It will only go to the same level paid by the user of an off-road ATV. What a silly question. Next?

    Of course, the ultimate tactic of the keyboard bullies is to have the last word. There is nothing I can do about that but tell them how much sheer contempt and pity I have for them and their inadequate need to type abuse and press send. Over to you once again boys.

    To everyone else, thanks for reading.

    Henry Mayhew
    Managing Director
    Ecocats Ltd
    http://www.ecocats.com

  7. #97
    KevB is offline Registered User
    Location : Kent/Chichester
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
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    8,022

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    [ QUOTE ]
    I will whip up a coalition of campaign groups to debate my comments that the polluter boat industry and their fellow-travellers will regret

    [/ QUOTE ] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    So you think that your insignificant campany has more clout than the rest of the British boat builders? I think it's time you came down to earth little man.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    Been watching the thread with interest and I understand you are promoting your designs but what about the thousands of boat owners who already own their boats and could not possibly afford to buy new, perhaps you can see it from my point that you are actively encouraging a doubling of fuel costs for me when there are far bigger polluters than leisure boaters if your argument for an end to derogation is an environmental one.

  9. #99
    SP2's Avatar
    SP2 is online now Registered User
    Location : Carmarthenshire the Garden of Wales
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: 25 knots at a third the fuel

    Not sure that your post will change the situation, actually, but I am sure you feel better for it.

    Fact is that whatever they do to red diesel, there are a heap of people on here who won't look at your company as a potential builder of their next boat, no matter how good it is. And a coalition of environmentalists will probably be happy to join you only after they have sorted out aircraft emissions, motor vehicle emissions, power station emissions... Can't see them helping your cause one bit. Actually, you sounded rather threatening - that would never do as you might be thought of as a bit of a bully.

    However, as you indicate, you have a view and you are entitled to it.

    Good luck with your sales, as you may need it.

    No bullying in this post, I hope - just the view of someone with an ordinary mono hull trying to enjoy the water.

  10. #100
    tcm is offline Registered User
    Location : Caribbean at the moment
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    Jan 2002
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    22,974

    Default Playground bullies, Adam Smith not applicable

    Hm.

    I know from experience that many if not all contrubutors can be argued for a long time and held to a debating issue, and sometimes even turned around. So it isn't really correct to pre-emptively accuse everyone of "bullying". You can argue a subject hereabouts.

    If bullying has happened then it should not. But you know very well your statements were contentious to say the least, and would attract some invective.

    However, steadfast arguing of a diferent viewpoint by many people against you and you feeling "got at" isn't bullying. That might easily be the feeling one get when losing an argument. Perhaps in a playground, or anywhere else.

    You neatly quote Adam Smith to support your tactics of supporting higher diesel tax. This is a fabulous trick. But a higher tax rate to muck up competitors is not any part of "enlightened self-interst" proposed by Adam Smith! Because such tax twists the level playing field of competition which he DOES propose. Enlightened self-interest does mean supporting a law to close down any boatmaker called sealine or princess of sunseeker either. At the time of Adama Smith there wasn't even any income tax in currecnt form and the expeimental high-tax experiments of late 20th century quite undreamt of - nor would AS have supported any such taxes at all. You'll have to do a bit better than that. Quite a lot better.

    To illustrate - let's go back to that playground. Supposing you proposed a new school rule for school milk (i'm going back a bit) and that scholl milk must ONLY to be shared amonsgt people called "henry". That would benefit you, at the expense of others, in pretty much the same way. Can you imagine the reaction of other schoolkids if this happened? Or perhaps you know? Does this ring a bell? Do you think that you might know a little les about playground bullies if were a little less selfish?

    Oh, and this isn't bullying nor necessarily the last word, either. You're welcome to have that, but not yet.


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