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  1. #81
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    Sep 2010
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    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Dan,

    I'm sure a few people must have tried trapezes on Wayfarers - I tried a home made one on my Scorpion when I was a slim 19 and my crew a featherweight 15, of course it was out of class and just an experiment but we did get her planing to windward.

    A few minutes later my swaging on the wire parted and chum disappeared with a mighty splash, towed by the elastic; he wasn't very impressed - must have been a bit of a shock - but I was laughing so much I did capsize unintenionally.
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  2. #82
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    33,126

    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Lots of sailing schools have fitted trapezes to Wayfarers, as a first introduction to trapezing, it has its uses.

    Maybe you need to think about what you are trying to achieve. A heavy boat needs more power to drive it to windward through choppy water. A light boat needs less power.
    But coping with a bit more breeze is as much about proper control of the sails as it's about righting power.
    A modern singlehander like the Dzero, you have 9sqm of sail on a narrow hull and one bloke sitting out, it works because the sail is controllable, even a bit automatic due to the flexible rig. Even the bad old Laser can flatten its sail and go upwind in half a gale.

  3. #83
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    Sep 2010
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    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    In our case with a trapeze and relatively light crew on a medium / light Scorpion, it was about righting power while keeping light = a lot more speed.

    On a Wayfarer, yes it will just be trapezing practice, I suppose it might help a light but experienced crew for progress ( and trapezing is a lot comfier and easier on the back than hiking out ) but not in class for racing.
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  4. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    8,293

    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    More thoughts, not strictly relevant to Wayfarers......but I'll welcome responses...

    I've realised lately that the awkwardness of climbing backwards up a steeply sloping floor, on to a side-deck which is 18 inches higher, while holding the tiller and at least one sheet, has made stepping into the trapeze position, much harder for me...



    ...less of a problem for Osprey crews, who aren't steering (and who aren't singlehandedly keeping the boat upright). They may also be significantly taller than me.

    So...if I put together a couple of diagonal wood steps (port and starboard) on which I can place my forward foot to press myself up and backwards, it will make it much easier to quickly and smoothly move my weight out. Something like this...



    ...it may look odd, but it's not a problem which most trapezing helms encounter, because skiffs and catamarans are flat-decked.

    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    Maybe you need to think about what you are trying to achieve. A heavy boat needs more power to drive it to windward through choppy water.
    That is spot-on. Both the Wayfarer and Osprey are heavy boats with only modest sail areas; so they need hard-driving through chop, to sail their best. That must be partly why it doesn't work for me, singlehanding in a breeze.

    But I do blame my baggy old mainsail; tell me if I'm kidding myself. I often watch lighter, newer dinghies with bigger rigs, looking docile in gusty F4 conditions, with their sails neither flapping nor drawing enough to heel the boat...

    ...their relaxed crews just holding their position before a race-start, the boat seemingly inert, sails tame and silent until the crew are good and ready, then, bang...they pull in the sheets harder and the boat start shifting.

    My old mainsail doesn't allow that neutral point...there's no calm spot between noisy flapping and full-thrust. As soon as the sail stops flapping, it's powering harder than is manageable. Is it meant to be that frantic? Would a flat new sail make the power less on/off?



    I'm not convinced that being overpowered so easily in 10/12 knots of wind, is inevitable. If the sail was flatter, wouldn't it allow that mid-way point where the sheet can be slackened without simply flapping, and without the boat losing all drive and steering?

  5. #85
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    Sep 2010
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    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Dan,

    I'm guessing you've got the wire length, foot grips ( NOT ankle breaker loops ) on the side deck and elastic retainers on the trapeze rings / hooks right.

    So that leaves the vertical trapeze adjuster setup., should be adjustable as you go along so as to be skimming not dunking into waves - low or high and a good mecanicanical 4:1 purchase to allow inbetween ( I found 4:1 fine with a bit of body tweaking from the sidedeck ).
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  6. #86
    Join Date
    May 2001
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    North from the Nab about 10 miles
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    8,522

    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Proctor was asked by Bell Woodworking to design an 18 and 22 foot home build cruiser. The result was the 18ft Seagull and 22ft Seamew. He used the Wayfarer hull and simply drew it out. I had a Seamew for a number of years, and found she had the same seaworthiness and good handling of her dinghy predecessor. Laid up in the yard with a Wayfarer alongside we measured off, and apart from an angled straight stem on the bigger boat to simplify construction, found the proportions and angles almost identical. Haven't seen one for many years now, but a lovely boat to handle, and with respectable turn of speed. Fitted with a ballasted centreplate to prevent capsize!
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  7. #87
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    33,126

    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrane View Post
    ..
    That is spot-on. Both the Wayfarer and Osprey are heavy boats with only modest sail areas; so they need hard-driving through chop, to sail their best. That must be partly why it doesn't work for me, singlehanding in a breeze.

    But I do blame my baggy old mainsail; tell me if I'm kidding myself. I often watch lighter, newer dinghies with bigger rigs, looking docile in gusty F4 conditions, with their sails neither flapping nor drawing enough to heel the boat...

    ...their relaxed crews just holding their position before a race-start, the boat seemingly inert, sails tame and silent until the crew are good and ready, then, bang...they pull in the sheets harder and the boat start shifting.

    My old mainsail doesn't allow that neutral point...there's no calm spot between noisy flapping and full-thrust. As soon as the sail stops flapping, it's powering harder than is manageable. Is it meant to be that frantic? Would a flat new sail make the power less on/off?



    I'm not convinced that being overpowered so easily in 10/12 knots of wind, is inevitable. If the sail was flatter, wouldn't it allow that mid-way point where the sheet can be slackened without simply flapping, and without the boat losing all drive and steering?
    That sail does look full in the picture, but you may not be giving it a fair chance.
    Is your mast set up as per the class tuning guides?
    On my last dinghy with similar rig, to get a flat sail in a breeze we had to have the mast bend right.
    That meant correct settings for:
    Mast heel position
    Deck level pusher
    Spreader length and angle
    Rig tension
    Rake

    Then you have a pre-bend curve in the mast which is hopefully what the sailmaker was working with.
    In an osprey you may have the issue that not all masts are the same section.

    Once you have the mast basically right, then you use plenty of kicker to bend the top back and flatten the sail, plus some cunningham to match. Outhaul on maximum too.

    Our mainsail would go from about 13% camber powered up for a reach, down to maybe 3% for survival conditions upwind. Being an older couple, our idea of 'survival' was somewhat less wind than the top sailors!

    Obviously this won't substitute for weight on the rail, but setting the rig right moves the wind range up substantially.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    West Sussex / Hants
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    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    You missed the primary and easiest one - clew outhaul tension, Dan it would be worth you having as much pull on this as possible to flatten the main.

    If the sail is old and baggy and a newer main is not available, it may well be worth having a ' flattening reef ' added, this is a cringle just a few inches above the normal clew one but gets rid of the belly ' shelf ' of the sail - or for more money just have it recut and make this the standard clew.

    In the 70's some sailmakers mains came with flattening reefs.

    Even on my A22 I have a powerful adjustable clew outhaul led aft working through ball bearing blocks and sheaves, every part of the running rigging is ball bearing as I learned what a fantastic bonus it is from my dinghy days.
    Last edited by Seajet; 25-10-18 at 09:14.
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  9. #89
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    Dec 2010
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    8,293

    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by oldharry View Post
    Proctor was asked by Bell Woodworking to design an 18 and 22 foot home build cruiser. The result was the 18ft Seagull and 22ft Seamew. He used the Wayfarer hull and simply drew it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by lw395 View Post
    ...have the mast bend right....correct settings for: Mast heel position, Deck level pusher, Spreader length and angle, Rig tension, Rake.

    Once you have the mast basically right, plenty of kicker to bend the top back and flatten the sail, plus some cunningham to match. Outhaul on maximum too...this won't substitute for weight on the rail, but setting the rig right moves the wind range up substantially.
    A good list, thanks. I have no deck-mounted mast-ram to press back on the gooseneck; and I've several demons in the tension/rake department, each being tackled tentatively. Although, somebody lately said that the whole ability of the mast to flex spilling wind, first assumes that there's enough ballast aboard to prevent the boat heeling sooner than the mast can bend...

    ...and in the moderate conditions which are mostly too much, the mast may not be very flexible. I must just live with that.

    The range of camber that you mention, encourages me to really pull on the sail controls. Strangely though, when I reef the sail, the remaining very small (upper) area looks extremely flat, and I always expect it will be effortless to control. She still heels a lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seajet View Post
    If the sail is old and baggy and a newer main is not available, it may well be worth having a 'flattening reef' added, this is a cringle just a few inches above the normal clew one but gets rid of the belly ' shelf ' of the sail - or for more money just have it recut and make this the standard clew.
    You mean...like this?



    This was something I was coming to, ahead of your mentioning it. The foot of my mainsail is decidedly full and flabby, and tying that clew hard down to the boom definitely reduces fullness. I had assumed it was for tightening up the leech, but I didn't know why.

    I'll employ it every time, in future.

    Here's my trapeze-line hook...it really isn't a sex-toy...



    The black line visible running athwartship behind, is shockcord running through gunwale-mounted mini-blocks which keeps the unused trapeze hooks ready for use, but allows the one in use to go several feet outside the boat. It works, so I've stuck to it.

    It's an Allen keyball system. The ball fits easily but securely into the smooth moulding on the harness, which hopefully eliminates ever getting hooked by stray lines, or punching a hole in the capsized hull with the conventional harness-hook. I had to use the drill and grinder to adapt my old Musto harness so it works with the Allen spreader-bar and mounting plate...but it seems to work...



    As to whether the harness height-adjuster is up to the job, I think only practice will tell.
    Last edited by dancrane; 25-10-18 at 11:48.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    West Sussex / Hants
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    Default Re: Wayfarer - great little boat

    Jeez, I've never heard of a harness hook puncturing a hull, but anything is possible.

    For a brief while in the late 70's there was a ' Continuous ' sytsem for trapezing where one didn't have to hook on and off side to side; I tried it, but it seemed simpler just to stick with the standard system - when the crew may be more available to tweak things mid-way.

    I last used my old harness with the end wirelocked closed - very carefully, by moi - before going half out of a DH Dove for air-air photography - when I left Dunsfold they gave me a lovely painting of an idiot sticking out of our Dove with a sailing boat heading for the sun - I must re-learn how to put pictures on here now the quickie option isn't available.
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