Charts and Pilots

[Obi]

Hi,
Just joined and have been readin up a bit on here and now want to ask a question of my own.

Im hoping to set off for the Med from the UK shortly, Ive found a collection of mainly admiralty charts for sale, some 290 in total for biscay to the med, although I dont have the specific details of the what age charts they are all later than 1970..lets assume not updated.
Ive met liveaboards who have been through the med with old charts but I would rather hear some views on this from here before considering a purchase.

I know wrecks appear, sand shifts, harbours change and 1970 is a long time ago etc etc which to me suggests like I should get all new charts.

Any comments?

Thanks
Mark

[lenseman]

Hello Mark

Notwithstanding the fact that wrecks appear, sand shift, harbours change, I doubt you will be drawing much more that 1.6 metres or probably a lot less. Therefore any chart will do as coast lines and visible and prominent landmarks (including lighthouses, church steeples, power stations) have not altered drastically for millennia.

Trinity House and others do a splendid job or placing coastal guides to a safe haven and Notice(s) to Mariners can update you of any recent obstructions along the way.

Go ahead and enjoy yourself [BTW - Welcome to the YBW forums]. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've been in the Med for five years and sailed down via Biscay.

I keep paper on the table at all times when at sea yet I use C-Map (some quite old) for my main nav. None of this stuff is really correctable unless you love working with Notices every week and you cannot update C-Map anyway. Lumps of rock don't move and soundings are seldom updated, anyway. The main things that change are local regulations -- no anchoring, fishing, landing, etc., and, far more importantly, the lights.

So my solution (I'm sure there are others every bit as good or better) is to keep old paper on the table so I can draw a pencil line and keep a log in pencil on the chart, use C-Map (or your preferred electronic system) for main nav and buy new pilots regularly -- the local equivalents to Reeds -- e.g. Bloc Marine -- have all the latest regs around anywhere you are likely to want to anchor. Most will give you the lights and you can do a quick correction on your paper for those lights you are likely to be interested in.

I am firmly of the view that electronic systems are the way to go...they are so accurate you can find a buoy in zero viz and planning takes just a few minutes for even a complicated passage.

If you are heading down to the Med you might like to consider joining the Cruising Association, which has a very active Med section.

[JamesFrance]

I once did most of the South of France coast using an AA roadmap, as my charts were on my old boat in Port Grimaud and I was going there to collect them.

As long as visibility is good and the water is clear, you are unlikely to have much problem in the Med, as it is just a case of point and go and you should get to your destination.

I did get a surprise last year though, passing Barcelona in a heavy rainstorm and my chart plotter thought the main harbour wall was at least a mile closer to the shore than it now is. Saw it before hitting it fortunately.

There do seem to be a lot of prohibited areas now which won't be shown on old charts, so I would stay well out from the coast.

[jeremyshaw]

290 for Biscay alone is an awful lot of charts to store and manage.

I agree with Lemain - what you really need is a good recent pilot (Imray's have downloadable updates, maybe others too) which will give you current harbour charts. A pilot will also advise on TSS's in the area.

Then you just need some decent passage planning charts (age pretty much immaterial) and ideally some more detailed charts for areas you will be visiting or where navigation is more tricky (Brittany coast for example).

I did UK to Turkey without any detailed charts, just passage charts. I would have preferred more detail, and insisted the owner buy pilots and a chart for the Messina Straits. Just remember as well as passage planning you need to know:
a) What am I likely to hit? Rocks, buoys, tidal gates, sandbanks, reefs etc.
b) Who might give me trouble for being in the wrong place?
c) How do I get into harbour safely? Not just your intended harbours, but any that might be a safe haven when you turn to Plan D.

If you are short crewed and closing the coast then you will want up to date buoyage on your charts, but that's less vital if you will be keeping a good watch.

You might have 290 charts for Biscay and be unable to answer those questions (though unlikely). You might answer them with less than 5 and a pilot.

[Richard10002]

I use Imray Charts to comply with the paper chart requirement, and have a cheap Lowrance Plotter which came with software for UK to Gib. Another £150 or so bought the software for the Med. And a few quid on Pilots, which you should have in any case. Job Done for about £700 or so. Served me well to Malta, and will do the same back to the UK over the Summer.

Admiralty charts will cost thousands to do the same job.

[laurance]

Whilst many have given examples of getting by with uncorrected charts, insufficient charts and even road maps, a situation that is still an improvement on what our forebears had to work with, it should be pointed out that up to date chart folios of the intended area of operation are a religion in the commercial sector, as any Third Officer to whom the unenviable task of endless corrections invariably falls. You will say this is merely to satisfy the requirements of the regulations but it should be remembered that in this instance, the regulations reflect the seriousness of the view taken by the professional seafaring community of the need for updated folios and their impact on the safe conduct of vessels. It is interesting the many of those above advocating compromising this ideal will no doubt be holders of various Certificates of Competence and will therefore be aware of this.
What their view really reflects is the reality that paper charts are cumbersome, expensive and that it is unrealistic for the recreational seafarer to keep them updated, especially if online corrections are not available to him or her.
Many of us who got our C o C's some years ago and possibly have a few miles under the keel will feel a strong attachment to the simple and stoic use of the navigators traditional corrected paper charts but it can no longer be denied what a huge improvement even quite small charts plotter's are for all seafarers and their chances of a safe passage. Interface this with an AIS and you are as safe as you can currently be, good seamanship notwithstanding.
So my advice would be to buy the biggest screened plotter with the easiest to up-date chart software together with a set of new passage charts for planning, manual plotting - and against the day for when the gadgets go tits-up - and pilot books.
Your 1970's paper charts will no longer be corrected by Admiralty Chart Agents who are now not correcting beyond four years back. Though you could do this yourself with online corrections the very thought of such a task makes me weak at the knees.

Why do you feel that the plotter should be interfaced to an AIS? In my experience as a yachtsman in the Med (where the OP is going) practically every time I have to give way to another vessel it is a very small fishing boat or another yacht, neither of whom have AIS transmitters fitted. Furthermore, AIS is not a navigational tool, it is a collision avoidance tool. I'd rather have a radar than an AIS any day and a radar is a navigational tool.

[laurance]

I'd rather have both, particularly if the RADAR were a stand alone model. A well installed correctly setup RADAR may see your small fisherman or yacht in poor vis, at other times the mark 1 eyeball is usually pretty good at that.
In a small boat I would rather be a detailed electronic marker on a ships bridge than the indistinct blob of a RADAR target.