Lets start the debate... because CB Magazine seems very driven by wooden boats, epoxy is a sin etc...
I have a HR Rasmus - A new HR 36 came alongside me a few weeks back and wanted to come aboard to view my "classic HR".
I just thought I had a nice old boat in fairly good nick with some nice teak and mahogany in the right places. Is it a Classic now?
So what is a classic boat? Does it have to be made of wood in the classic style? or can GRP boats now be considered as classics. CR Holman designed some lovely boats in GRP as did others.
Judgeing by the usual agenda of BC magazine, there is a view that they should be Gaffers or Fife's or GL Watson's or have some pedigree / history. Should there be acknowledgement of "practical classics", the boats that most of us own and work on to keep going and should we be proud of our old GRP boats not ashamed to discuss them in wooden boat company.
I do like a well kept wooden boat boat couldn't live with one. Should CB be a bit more open minded about older boats and open their brief to include a wider range of classic boats.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?
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Yacht Cabatach - Keep old sheds sailing!
I think they are being a bit harsh - there are many accepted 'classics' which have been so re-built that they are effectively new, while other vessels are told that they are not classics for the reasons given in the link above.
At the end of the day, what does it matter?
There are many very fine classic fibreglass, steel, timber, ferrocement and aluminium boats out there, proving to be a visual and physical delight to their owners.
I think a boat - any boat - is a classic if you can feel happy and inspired by being in that boat's presence.
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Looking at the boats at westcountry classic rallies I do wonder whether, say, a Westerly Nomad shouldn't be considered more of a classic than for instance the Cornish Shrimpers and Crabbers which enter?
Should CB be a bit more open minded about older boats and open their brief to include a wider range of classic boats.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?
I guess it is a commercial decision, don't want to upset the existing readership - but I would have thought the term "modern classic" would not upset the traditional classic owners...........might widen the readership a tad, plenty of crossover anyway for the folks who like a boat they can work on (or simply have one that needs work )...............whether a GRP Modern Classic or Wooden Traditional Classic both now share a need for an owner to invest hands on TLC - and someone has decided she is worth "saviing".
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
You are hardly starting the debate! Someone comes on here and asks the same question every couple of months.
FWIW if someone comes up to you and tells you the would love to have a boat like yours, and then goes on to list a huge number of insurmountable reasons why they cannot, you have a classic boat.
There was a good crack at this on the old CMBA forum a few years ago. Entirely inconclusive but highly amusing. I think it came down to anything you wanted, but don't expect agreement. Qualifiers such as >90% downtime due to fettling / varnishing / polishing, cost vs value greater than a factor of 10 etc. etc. all counted though.
The American politician, Jesse Helms, is quoted as saying: I can’t define pornography, but I reconginze it when I see it. So it is for most of us I think with Classic Boats.
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You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
I not much fussed whether my boat is a classic or not, i'm quite happy with it and it does consume man hours etc..
I guess the point I was driving at is this. The PBO forum is full of people debating how to fix and keep all types of boats and the CB column is full of people debating the best varnish etc. but the magazines seem to leave a hole between them - PBO is driving towards new boats and motor boats and how to work your electronic Gizmo that stops you bumping into the West Kyle that you can see with your A1 eyeball anyway.
The CB forum is very wooden boaty with a concession to some bits of steel etc. They both seem to drifting away from the middle ground which i guess is sailing equivalent of Practical Classics, the car mag.
I am a PBO and CB subscriber but am thinking of giving CB up as there are only so many rib replacements and pictures of shiny varnish I can look at on old Pilot cutters
I'd like to see modern classics reconised because I'd like to see more articles on them and less about speed boats and Bavarias in either of the above magazines and that's what most of us have I think?
The real reason for defining a modern classic I guess has the hidden agenda that someone might consider them newsworthy and write more about them. Maybe I'm out of step with what the readership of these magazines really want.
I guess i'm more Practical Classics than what Car in a boaty sense
Thats why I started this to see if others have similar or different views and to try to influence the magazines to maybe put a bit more of what I want to see in them and a bit less of what i don't want.
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Yacht Cabatach - Keep old sheds sailing!
Thats why I started this to see if others have similar or different views and to try to influence the magazines to maybe put a bit more of what I want to see in them and a bit less of what i don't want.
Spot on. Good show!
We need our own magazine, could call it: "Old Boys Boat - Dedicated to those boats produced in the infancy of modern boat construction"
I would much rather read how to make my own safety harness out of old car seat belts (on of my favourites from the old, lovable, PBO), than read some bloated fluff about the new Nonsuch 34 - with exciting new speakers in the toilet, double bed and aft mounted power shower.
The Americans seem to have the right idea: http://www.goodoldboat.com/index_1.php
If you ask they will send a sample copy.
It's a lovely compliment to have one's good-looking boat referred to as a "classic". I bet you let him on staright away!
Generally, the term "classic" is used in the marine industry - predominantly by boat brokers and others who benefit by the generally higher perceievd or actual commercial value (which includes CB) to indicate that the boat is a) old and b) probably if not definitely for sale. There are shades of classicism (?) from "famous" all the way down to "understated" ie not very classic at all. One constant is that a classic boat has just *got* to have some varnished wood, the more the merrier.
Of course, when speaking with insurance companies, the term "classic" is never used - it's just an old boat and hence surely much cheaper to insure, please?
I took a steel boat to the YM Classic Boat Rally in Brixham - 1989 I think. She was 'Hermes' the Mcgruer designed 8 metre CR built in Belgium. Did feel that we were the odd one out though - the judges walked right past us having looked at the lovely wooden boats either side. Did get a prize for making the most effort to get there though.
Dare I say it but I apparently own a classic boat she's a Laurent Giles Vertue, but here in Oz very few people recognize the class but on the water people comment that she looks a real classic. I sail Corio Vertue whenever I can, and every time I go out of the marina I pass a beautiful looking Nic 32 - in my eyes a real classic, but she never goes out and is used as a live a board. Nobody comments about her.
A boat on the water says all - a nice sheer, good proportions and the look of a proper little ship rather than a go fast plastic fantastic, but I do like Wally Yachts though, and would love to own an HR. I can't afford either so I stick to may faithful classic and am happy.
Classic boat should have more plastic/steel/aluminium or they should call the magazine classic wooden boat.
Nich 32's, Rival 38's, Sigma 33's, Twisters, and dare I say it Bavaria 350's are all classics in my book, as well as the HR's from the late 80's of course.
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It amuses why some people find it important to know whether their boat is a classic or not? Surely one purchases a boat based on their requirements, whatever they are: aesthetics, practicality, space; rather than what others my might perceive it to be (and how that perception makes you feel)?
This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.
I have westerly 22 circa 1968, she is a grp hulled boat with hardwood windows brass portholes aft in the heads and off to the front vee berth, i am currently giving her a new lees of life. in my mind she is very much a classic. she even has the original ratsey sails which are in pretty good condition. just need a good scrub up.
It amuses why some people find it important to know whether their boat is a classic or not? Surely one purchases a boat based on their requirements, whatever they are: aesthetics, practicality, space; rather than what others my might perceive it to be (and how that perception makes you feel)?
This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.
Very true the above. i dont care how old my boat is ! i looked at loads of boats before i bought the one i wanted. i considered head room i;m fairly tall at 6 ft , i wanted something stable, i wanted something i could easily fit two adults and two kids aboard, i wanted something i could afford the upkkep of etc... and i wanted something i could afford to buy in the first place, so that meant buying something old and neglected and restoring, and as it happens i am pretty handy being a mech engineer, so... on we go
“Kate” is a First Rule (1907) International Twelve Metre.
LOA 23.75 metres (tip of bowsprit to boom end).
LOD 18.40 metres.
LWL 12.00 metres.
Beam 3.45 metres.
Draft 2.30 metres.
Displacement 20 tonnes.
Sail area 250 square metres
---- “Kate” was designed by Alfred Mylne in 1908 and built by Philip Walwyn and his small team of woodworkers in St. Kitts. Launch date was December 2006.
Copies of Mylne’s drawings and calculations were used. Displacement is as designed, as is ballast ratio and rig. Construction, engineered by Ian Nicolson with plan approval from the Twelve Metre Class is wood, epoxy, bronze fastened throughout and glass sheathed using two layers of 300gsm biaxial. Walwyn has used this method over the past 30 years to build a number of boats for himself. Epoxy, additives and glass cloth are from SP Systems in the Isle of Wight. Coatings are by Awlgrip.
Frames are laminated mahogany as is the centerline structure. Planking, screwed and glued to the frames is 35 mm Oregon pine, a 2mm veneer of Okoume covers the interior planking. Deck beams are laminated Oregon pine. Decks are two layers of 10mm Bruynzeel ply with a laid deck of Oregon pine of 4mm glued over. The spars are Sitka spruce, made hollow. Sails are cream Dacron by Gowen of West Mersea. The keel of 11.5 tonnes is lead with 18 bronze keel bolts. Rigging is by Spencer of Cowes using Sta-Lok terminals and rigging screws. Ten bronze, Meissner, self tailing winches handle halyards, runners and sheets. Bronze and steel hardware is by Classic Marine in Woodbridge.
With experience gained building half a dozen boats up to 23 metres on deck engineered in wood/epoxy, “Kate’s” interior and furniture is designed to be both functional and add strength and it makes for a particularly stiff structure.
There is no engine, no tanks and apart from a masthead tricolour, no electrics. Handheld GPS and VHF are on board. The boat is a symphony in simplicity.
Accommodation is traditional with two quarter berths aft, chart table on starboard, galley top on port, settee berths and pilot berths port and starboard in the saloon, marine head on starboard and vanity opposite on port by the mast with a double cabin forward. The anchor locker and stowage is forward of a watertight bulkhead. A small lazarette is between two watertight bulkheads aft of the tiller.
I would question Kate's validity as a true classic - though I am not saying you are making that claim - but not her right to be regarded as special. Her example, in my mind, complicates the debate rather than settles it: an 'original' design build with modern techniques, where does that fit in?
On the one hand you chose an outmoded design, one with virtues embodied by her contemporaries of that era but built with solutions and technologies of the present day. It is obvious what you may have gained by that perfectly reasonably approach but still there is a certain loss of the full ascetic effect that otherwise would have been if you had gone for traditional construction. I make this criticism as part of this discussion not to cause offence, I still think she is superb.
Classic Boat's editorship clearly must embrace, for commercial reasons at least, the wider definition of the magazine's title, but there has to be a cut off point, a framework within which to keep people focussed on the magazines aims. Both Kate and say, a Nic 32, champion the same two ideas, namely design elements from a previous era married with technology. But whereas though the Nic has filtered something from past designs, she is looking to the future, she is modern. Kate on the other hand is a huge statement of joy for the past and despite her construction she invites us to enjoy her as such. I think Classic Boat thinks the same way and why we will not see even classic Bavs on the cover anytime soon.
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You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
But is Classic boats agenda a wide enough one to sustain a wide enough audience going forward.
I was seeking to broaden the definition of a clasic boat to influence the magazine to include articles on a wider range of subjects and boats including GRP ones and in my view make it more varied and interesting.
I like wooden boats, i chased round the Mylnes and the Fifes over the last few seasons when they come to the Clyde. I also think the gorgeous Nicolson 35 on the mooring next to me is worthy of mention and is closer to the world the majority of us are familiar with.
Is the readership happy with the definition classic boat seems to have of "what is a classic boat?"
Euan
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Yacht Cabatach - Keep old sheds sailing!
“Kate” is a First Rule (1907) International Twelve Metre.
LOA 23.75 metres (tip of bowsprit to boom end).
LOD 18.40 metres.
LWL 12.00 metres.
Beam 3.45 metres.
Draft 2.30 metres.
Displacement 20 tonnes.
Sail area 250 square metres
---- “Kate” was designed by Alfred Mylne in 1908 and built by Philip Walwyn and his small team of woodworkers in St. Kitts. Launch date was December 2006.
Copies of Mylne’s drawings and calculations were used. Displacement is as designed, as is ballast ratio and rig. Construction, engineered by Ian Nicolson with plan approval from the Twelve Metre Class is wood, epoxy, bronze fastened throughout and glass sheathed using two layers of 300gsm biaxial. Walwyn has used this method over the past 30 years to build a number of boats for himself. Epoxy, additives and glass cloth are from SP Systems in the Isle of Wight. Coatings are by Awlgrip.
Frames are laminated mahogany as is the centerline structure. Planking, screwed and glued to the frames is 35 mm Oregon pine, a 2mm veneer of Okoume covers the interior planking. Deck beams are laminated Oregon pine. Decks are two layers of 10mm Bruynzeel ply with a laid deck of Oregon pine of 4mm glued over. The spars are Sitka spruce, made hollow. Sails are cream Dacron by Gowen of West Mersea. The keel of 11.5 tonnes is lead with 18 bronze keel bolts. Rigging is by Spencer of Cowes using Sta-Lok terminals and rigging screws. Ten bronze, Meissner, self tailing winches handle halyards, runners and sheets. Bronze and steel hardware is by Classic Marine in Woodbridge.
With experience gained building half a dozen boats up to 23 metres on deck engineered in wood/epoxy, “Kate’s” interior and furniture is designed to be both functional and add strength and it makes for a particularly stiff structure.
There is no engine, no tanks and apart from a masthead tricolour, no electrics. Handheld GPS and VHF are on board. The boat is a symphony in simplicity.
Accommodation is traditional with two quarter berths aft, chart table on starboard, galley top on port, settee berths and pilot berths port and starboard in the saloon, marine head on starboard and vanity opposite on port by the mast with a double cabin forward. The anchor locker and stowage is forward of a watertight bulkhead. A small lazarette is between two watertight bulkheads aft of the tiller.
After all she did make the front cover
So why didn't you pop over to the Clyde in July to join the other Mylnes??
I have owned a 'classic boat' or at least they let me attend a 'classic boat rally' even though she was built in steel.
My current boat is based on a standard GRP hull and deck mouldings but designed quite a while ago by Angus Primrose, and strangely enough the underwater lines and dimensions are very close to my old Mcgruer 8CR 'Hermes'. Above the waterline there is a 'classic' ocean cruising rig complete with platform bowsprit and twin running poles as well as a fair bit of stained wood trim. People stop, look and most comments are favourable.
Its OK I am not claiming 'classic' or any other title - I liked her, I bought her, and I sail her. Even when I couldn't start the engine I sailed out against the wind and back in to the marina - that was the first time I had ever sailed her to windward but trusted that she would do it based on the lines. Call her what you like, she suits me both for looks and performance - nothing else really matters.
But while writing I have just realised that any sailing yacht with half a claim to being a 'classic' must be able to do just that - be sail without an engine in close quarters as well as open water.
Macwester 30 sloop GRP 39 years old; only 12 were build and going strong.
I like the look of those, how about posting a better picture than your avatar on Snook's "Readers Boats"? Although a nice looking interesting older boat I supppose not exactly a classic.
...Sigma 33's, Twisters, and dare I say it Bavaria 350's are all classics in my book, as well as the HR's from the late 80's of course.
I love Sigma 33's. I've sailed in two National Championships in them, but I've never regarded them as "Classic Yachts". If that is a classic, then how do you distinguish a 41-foot Robert Clark yawl or a gaff-rigged Vertue from them? I would suggest that rig and designer are good starting points, with the byeline "modern" if the yacht was, like "Patience" the Vertue (built 1990s I think) built recently.
This quest to find whether one’s boat fits within a strict categorized definition strikes me as very British. I don’t see the French, Italians or Americans being too obsessed about this question; they all have a very healthy following of old character boats, but less of an obsession of categorising them.
I don't think anyone "obsesses" over whether their boat is a "classic" or not. Certainly, I have never heard anyone talk about it during my 50 years or so on the water.
Topics on internet forums, like articles in newspapers, may raise "talking points" but they are a poor guide to reality.
the owner wants to see you tack eleonora into a marina, without an engine
If you are refering to the Westward replica how do you think she was handled in 1910? She would certainly have been worked in close quarters situations under sail as she had no engine - no marinas then so would be using moorings. Probably a steam tug available for assistance given the size of the vessel.
I did say 'close quarters' which is a relative term, the marina was your idea. However, she would be turned away from the marinas I regularly use as she is far too long and heavy for the pontoons, but would be aground before she got there anyway.
Lets start the debate... because CB Magazine seems very driven by wooden boats, epoxy is a sin etc...
I have a HR Rasmus - A new HR 36 came alongside me a few weeks back and wanted to come aboard to view my "classic HR".
I just thought I had a nice old boat in fairly good nick with some nice teak and mahogany in the right places. Is it a Classic now?
So what is a classic boat? Does it have to be made of wood in the classic style? or can GRP boats now be considered as classics. CR Holman designed some lovely boats in GRP as did others.
Judgeing by the usual agenda of BC magazine, there is a view that they should be Gaffers or Fife's or GL Watson's or have some pedigree / history. Should there be acknowledgement of "practical classics", the boats that most of us own and work on to keep going and should we be proud of our old GRP boats not ashamed to discuss them in wooden boat company.
I do like a well kept wooden boat boat couldn't live with one. Should CB be a bit more open minded about older boats and open their brief to include a wider range of classic boats.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?
Sailed my old shed past your old shed yesterday----they were both looking EXTREMELY classic!
The only issue I have with Kate is the colour. She'd be much more of a classic if she was white. Or anything, just not that bile yellow.
As for being able to sail a classic in close quarters, it's not easy. Especially earlier designs with a full forefoot. Sailing almost any classic into a marina is almost an impossibility unless your berth is right on the outskirts.
As for being able to sail a classic in close quarters, it's not easy. Especially earlier designs with a full forefoot. Sailing almost any classic into a marina is almost an impossibility unless your berth is right on the outskirts.
I fully accept the problems of sailing any boat within the confines of a marina as I have found handling a modern 43 ft yacht under power with lots of windage a bit of a challenge at times despite the bowthruster (which I usually forget to use as its not my boat). My permanent marina berth is chosen so that if sailing in or out I have the option of warping on to a hammerhead if need be. I do practice sailing when conditions are suitable as the only way to really learn how your boat handles is in close proximity to fixed objects. Also, I enjoy it.
However, I would point out that most 'earlier designs with full forefoot' were designed before internal engines were common or reliable. If they had an engine at all it would have been a few horse power to provide propulsion in a flat calm and was definately an auxillary. They are clearly not suitable for marinas, even under power, but I would define sailing on and off a swinging mooring or anchor as close quarters handling, and the early owners of your classics would have regarded this as the norm. It may not be easy compared to modern dinghy type hull and rig yachts, but surely that's part of owning such a boat.
If in doubt about the possibility of handling a boat with a long fore foot under sail in close quarters look a the late 19th/early 20th century photos of the sailing herring drifters, how do you think those guys got in and out of harbour? (many of which are packed more tightly than a Solent marina at high season). The dipping lug rig was the norm on the east coast, but the Shetlanders always used a gaff rig on the main as they often had to beat significant distances in the narrow voes of the islands, but either way these boats were primarily worked under sail with a long sweep as back up.
Having been 'not allowed' to join the classics week in Cowes because my boat has a GRP hull, Nicholson 36 by the way. I would define classic:
A vessel designed to fit in to a natural marine environment such as the shallows of the east coast or the sweeping seas of the western approaches and can be seen as desending from a tracable history of ancestors. It can be constructed of any material and propelled by any means.
Therefore it is not designed for ease of construction and maximum proferbility and definately not designed to just go from marina to marina.
A vessel designed to fit in to a natural marine environment such as the shallows of the east coast or the sweeping seas of the western approaches and can be seen as desending from a tracable history of ancestors. It can be constructed of any material and propelled by any means.
Therefore it is not designed for ease of construction and maximum proferbility and definately not designed to just go from marina to marina.
Sounds fine to me, might even include my early Angus Primrose design with lines that can be traced back to Mcgruer's designs and the metre class . . . .
Given the pasting that our cousins across the pond get on other forums in our family, it is nice to record that they have a pleasantly classless attitude to classic status and a magazine to fill the gap that posters above have bemoaned. Good Old Boat magazine ..... "the magazine for the rest of us".
As the owner of a 45 year old grp Kim Holman design, I would readily subscribe to a UK equivalent.
Ok, I hold my hands up - mine's a Drascombe Dabber. All I can afford and manage; but it's a 'proper' standing-lug yawl, I only motor when I absolutely have to, I polish her up and take her to rallies, and I love her to bits. I read Classic Boat because I aspire to be a classic sailor, even if I'll never own a 'classic' wooden gaffer. Personally, I reckon a boat is just the shape of the hole it makes in the water; it's what you do with it that makes it a classic.
PBO was like that a few years ago and used to service our plastic classics rather well. It has since drifted away from ( going by the forum anyway) what interests its core readership.
Its now a cross between Yachting Monthly and the Motor Boat one. Too much looking at new speed boats and new yacht and equipment reviews and not enough on keeping the existing fleet going and where we go in our boats.
Thats why i started this - I guess I would like one of the magazines to aim and support the "Practical Classics" of which most are GRP but built on classics lines and designed by some of the greats.
Maybe what I want doesn't sell magazines (or new boats?). Maybe I should have launched this on the PBO forum as the classic forum seem to be avoiding commenting on these thoughts and reading between the lines probobly like their magazine the way it is.
Cabatach
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Yacht Cabatach - Keep old sheds sailing!
Appreciate that launching a new printed magazine, say, "Practical Classic Boat" is expensive and probably not viable for IPC - given the risk of canabalising the existing titles.............but, perhaps an opportunity for IPC (or someone else? ) to launch an E-zine / internet only magazine. Plenty of overlap from the existing titles so won't be starting from scratch nor need it's own full staff.........indeed subscriber generated content (but edited / approved by the E-zine - to lend credibility) would probably add volumes quickly. and cheaply
Perhaps a free monthly magazine, with a subscription for the archives if accessible / well indexed (only so many articles actually needed on servicing a winch etc etc - but having easy access to all of them would be useful if doing the job, otherwise only vaguely interesting or downright dull to read ..........and add in some targetted advertising, from Winches R Us etc )......a new title could be an easy way for IPC to road test a different business model without impacting on the existing titles.
My bet is that in due course someone like Mailspeed will launch a boat E-zine (or 2? ) - on their own or in partnership with another.........with a business that already sells product they would easily be able to get over the hurdle of making money from a readership reluctant to pay a subscription..........unless someone else cracks the boat online subscription model first.
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
I'd like to see modern classics reconised because I'd like to see more articles on them and less about speed boats and Bavarias in either of the above magazines and that's what most of us have I think?
I believe a classic boat is in the eye of the beholder, Some of the wooden boats I have owned & loved have been : a beautiful heron, a McGruer Cr8 (Debbie),a 48 foot Thornycroft motor cruiser,a 30 foot cruiser (builder unknown) and I believed at the time (& still do) they all were the most beautiful boats in the world, and my last three boats have been all fibreglass,a Riviera 47 , a Bavaria 42 Cruiser and now my current yacht a Beneteau Oceanis 43, I still think these are the most beautiful boats in the world and that is probably why I purchased them, -as I said it is all in the eye of the beholder,If you love it -enjoy it.Everybody sees it differently.
Yes, just checked the site,some beautiful wooden boat photos.
The saddest thing about lovely wooden boats is that often some people who buy them buy on a whim ,& buy them because they do not have a lot of money to spend and the wooden vessel is often cheap compared to a modern one .BUT, those same people do not have the money or the desire or ability to maintain the boat the way it should and hence so many are lying around in delapidated conditions,waiting for some "real" boat lover to fix them up"" again, to be sold again and the cycle continues. I have totally restored 4 wooden boats to immaculate condition and 3 of those boats are now sitting on moorings in total disrepair. It is very sad. I take my hat off to those who love & look after them, and a thumbs down to those morons who ruin them.
She's got a wooden mast and boom, but her plywood hull has been patched up with glassfibre and filler in an attempt (mostly successful) to keep the wet stuff on the outside.
She might be small but I think she handles her age pretty well, and although I patched her up and painted the hull and foredeck last year I still need to get round to tarting up her varnish which is the whole of the inboard.
She is light enough for me to launch, sail, and recover single handed and is a great introduction to sailing.
Now about her presently non-functional SeaBee 3.5Hp outboard; well one day I'll get time to have a good crack at restoring this, and even may if it isn't too heretical, try to update it's electrics! Will it be a classic if I "improve" it?
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I knew it was time to suspend the sailing lesson when the forked lightning hit the Loch surface!!
Well our boat could be a classic, rareity is probably more accurate, if anyone knows anything about a Highway 35 I believe designed by John Teale and built in the early 80s, please could they let me know as that's about all I know of her history. Thanks Derek
Re your Highway 35, is she a steel double-ender motor sailer type?
Or have I got it totally wrong?
If she is, there used to be one based at Marchwood Sailing Club opposite Southampton docks about 20 years ago, but I cannot remember her name.
And if she is steel, I am pretty sure there was mention of her class in 'Own a steel boat' by Mike Pratt (I used to have a copy, loaded it out, and it was never returned).
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Steel boat yes, but not a double ender, still it was a long shot........... we heard there was perhaps only about 6 built, ours being a ketch, and we have heard that there was a gaff rigged one somewhere.
Our boat was built by FL Steelcraft in Borth in Wales between 1980-1984, and spent time on the Thames before sailing around the South coast and eventually to down here in the Med, the boat's name is Vellamo.
The ultimate definition of a classic boat is financial. They are wonderfully stable investments. You can buy a classic boat for £20K, spend £15K a year for five years restoring her, and be 100% confident that she's still worth £20k. (Multiply my numbers by the factor appropriate to your budget.)
How about mine, not bio-degradeable but one of the boats from the 60's/70's still looking "boaty" to my eyes and every bit as much a classical design in it's way as wooden boats of half a century earlier.
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I used to think wives and boats were a financial drain on one's resources, but that was before the kids became teenagers.
I remember reading that the owners of original Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters got all hissy about the crop of new ones .... I should think by now there must be as many new ones as old ones ... is it a good thing new ones are being built? .... or not? ... or what?
I remember reading that the owners of original Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters got all hissy about the crop of new ones .... I should think by now there must be as many new ones as old ones ... is it a good thing new ones are being built? .... or not? ... or what?
They weren't hissy about them being built. But some do get annoyed at the fact that they're built and sold as Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. Have to say I can see where they're coming from. Especially when someone commissions and new boat when they could have completely restored an original for the same money.
They weren't hissy about them being built. But some do get annoyed at the fact that they're built and sold as Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. Have to say I can see where they're coming from. Especially when someone commissions and new boat when they could have completely restored an original for the same money.
But now as far as I am aware, there are no original BCPCs left to restore.
So if you want one you need to build a new one, which can be either a strict replica, or a new design.
In a new design, you might want to put a big chunk of lead into the keel. Then instead of filling the bilges up with cement for ballast, you can have space, for instance, for a big water tank (like I have ). If the ballast is lower down, you can have bigger rig and go faster, etc etc. Then you might want an autohelm, or even a winch or two!
The two things is probably why the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters Owners Association are still a bit touchy about the new ones - they still want to win some races!
The original aim, to make sure that all the originals get restored has largely been achieved.
NB. no two pilot cutters where ever the same - each yard/owner 'optimized' the design in their own way.
Any way no boat can be a pilot cutter unless it has carried a pilot and put him on board a ship for duty.
No replica emigrant ship unless it carries emigrants
No colin archer rescue boats unless someone (wouldn’t be a pilot would it ) got rescued
No replica tea clippers unless they have come back from china carrying tea, for the rescued emigrant pilots
What a lot of nonsense
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The BCPC Owner's Association is divided on the topic of replicas.
Some feel there is no place for them in the assc. Others welcome the idea of them in the assc.
A problem is that the originals are a very small gene pool - there are only 17 left and they are scattered all over Europe and as far away as BC. So getting a significant number of them together for a race or gathering is limited.
I think the new replicas should be welcome into the assc. and the races to keep things growing and people interested in the boats. If folks are keen enough to pursue a boat that has been faithfully built to the design of a BCPC hull and rig why should they not be included?
Myself, being so far away from the fleet of BCPC's (be them replicas or originals) - Carlotta is somewhat unique here on the Pacific NW coast. I'd welcome the chance to sail in accompany with a replica if there was one!
No replica emigrant ship unless it carries emigrants
No colin archer rescue boats unless someone (wouldn’t be a pilot would it ) got rescued
No replica tea clippers unless they have come back from china carrying tea, for the rescued emigrant pilots
What a lot of nonsense
The point is they aren't described as replicas by those who build them. I for one like to know when I'm looking at the real thing and when I'm looking at a copy.
There aren't any replica colin archer rescue boats. There are many boats build along those lines, but usually they lack the finesse of the originals and they become even more short and fat and do no good to the term Colin Archer. Newer boats are never described by their builders or owners as 'Rescue boats'.
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But now as far as I am aware, there are no original BCPCs left to restore.
There is the Breeze and the Raider, in Porlock and Martha's Vineyard respectively both in need of restoration, but both owned by owners both unwilling to do the work or sell. My point though was Mascotte and Cornubia (ex-Hirta), both were on the market for years before Mascotte finally sold last year. And yes, she has now gone to the West Coast of Scotland.
As for the replicas, I have nothing against them being built, and I have nothing against them racing with the original boats. The Pilot Cutter Reviews in Cornwall the last few years have been the best racing for Classics in the whole west country. And just incase your interested in comparable performance, a few years ago, the first four boats across the line finished within five seconds of each other, they were in no particular order, a replica Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter, an original Bristol Channel Pilot cutter, a replica Scillonian Pilot Cutter, and a Colin Archer.
The point is they aren't described as replicas by those who build them. I for one like to know when I'm looking at the real thing and when I'm looking at a copy.
Some of the originals are not very original. A lot of them, for example Peggy (ex Wave) has a much bigger rig than she orignally had.
Cornubia has been so completely rebuilt in her last that there is nothing original left (apart from one small piece of wood in the cockpit).
So is Corunbia an original, or a replica? Is Peggy still original with her new more efficient rig and the epoxy glue holding various bits together??????
Anyway, they are all boats which in my book are classic in some poorly defined way- and I sail one of them whatever anybody likes to call it. Classic or not.
Some of the originals are not very original. A lot of them, for example Peggy (ex Wave) has a much bigger rig than she orignally had.
Cornubia has been so completely rebuilt in her last that there is nothing original left (apart from one small piece of wood in the cockpit).
So is Corunbia an original, or a replica? Is Peggy still original with her new more efficient rig and the epoxy glue holding various bits together??????
Anyway, they are all boats which in my book are classic in some poorly defined way- and I sail one of them whatever anybody likes to call it. Classic or not.
Well, legally if a boat is taken apart, and put back together with new materials in the same air space then it is the same boat. Interestingly, if you then took all the old material, and reconstructed the boat from that then legally that one would be considered a different ship. A replica.
No one will tell you at which point in a restoration a boat becomes a replica, and in my opinion it doesn't, because if it did, then there would be very few old wooden boats left indeed.
As for the boats bigger rigs, yes, most of them are much bigger than the original working rigs. But when the pilots went racing these grew quite dramatically. Alpha for example had a topsail that required a 40ft topsail spar and a 25 foot jackyard to set it on.
Well, legally if a boat is taken apart, and put back together with new materials in the same air space then it is the same boat.
Well if that is right it is barking mad. If anyone else is thinking of doing that please dont. Just do the honest thing and built a new boat on similar lines. The old boat then remains either for someone to patch up or to disintegrate slowly in the traditional way, rather than ending up bit by bit in the boatyard skip. All IMHO of course.
Well if that is right it is barking mad. If anyone else is thinking of doing that please dont. Just do the honest thing and built a new boat on similar lines. The old boat then remains either for someone to patch up or to disintegrate slowly in the traditional way, rather than ending up bit by bit in the boatyard skip. All IMHO of course.
And if patching up results in everything ultimately being replaced? Or would you rather see a boat rot because getting it sailing again would replace too much?
And if patching up results in everything ultimately being replaced? Or would you rather see a boat rot because getting it sailing again would replace too much?
On balance, I think I would sooner see a boat rot, than see it destroyed for a "rebuild" incorporating virtually nothing of the original. Much better to be honest about it and just build the new boat and say you are building a new boat. Ezra and the like are older than "rebuilt" Cornubia and there is more honesty about them. (Although I am sure Cornubia is a fantastic boat in her own right, and I am using her as just one example amongst very many) All just my views, and I have no problem that others will differ in their view.
No replica emigrant ship unless it carries emigrants
No colin archer rescue boats unless someone (wouldn’t be a pilot would it ) got rescued
No replica tea clippers unless they have come back from china carrying tea, for the rescued emigrant pilots
What a lot of nonsense
........and who is going to tell 1000 Cornish Shrimper owners that they have to change the name of their class unless they get out there and bag a few shell fish?
On balance, I think I would sooner see a boat rot, than see it destroyed for a "rebuild" incorporating virtually nothing of the original. Much better to be honest about it and just build the new boat and say you are building a new boat. Ezra and the like are older than "rebuilt" Cornubia and there is more honesty about them. (Although I am sure Cornubia is a fantastic boat in her own right, and I am using her as just one example amongst very many) All just my views, and I have no problem that others will differ in their view.
Would you consider it to be the same boat if every part was replaced over the boats lifetime as running repairs? If so is that so different to a rebuild?
It's a bit like Triggers broom, he's had it 20 years and it's had two new handles and three new heads, but he still considers it the same broom.
Would you consider it to be the same boat if every part was replaced over the boats lifetime as running repairs? If so is that so different to a rebuild?
It's a bit like Triggers broom, he's had it 20 years and it's had two new handles and three new heads, but he still considers it the same broom.
I think the highland man's broom is different, as it evovles slowly over time. I also don't think there will be many, if any, boats that have had all their timber replaced over time gradually, whereas there are quite a few about now where the original has been destroyed in order to pretend that a new boat is the original.
I think the highland man's broom is different, as it evovles slowly over time. I also don't think there will be many, if any, boats that have had all their timber replaced over time gradually, whereas there are quite a few about now where the original has been destroyed in order to pretend that a new boat is the original.
When a boat is rebuilt the original material isn't just destroyed. If it gets replaced it's because it needs it and for most, it's not a decision taken lightly as what anyone undertaking a rebuild is trying to achieve is to restore the boat to it's former glory. If all they wanted was a new boat then sure, they'd build a replica.
The thing if a complete rebuild does nothing but build a new a different boat, at which point does that transition occur? How much of the original boat has to be in the structure, to satisfy that it's the same boat? Say for arguments sake a single piece of the original structure was sufficient, if that was then removed and used in an identical design being built along side then which is the original boat? The one it came from? Or the one it went into?
It's an argument that can go on for ever and no one will ever win. No one ever changes their mind in internet discussions anyway. I'll finish by stating that if an old boat goes into a shed, and two years later, comes out again, after having been taken apart and put back together again, then she to my mind is the same boat whether any of the original structure remains or not. Which is why Cornubia will always be a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter whilst Ezra will always be a replica.
What is a Classic Boat
)...............whether a GRP Modern Classic or Wooden Traditional Classic both now share a need for an owner to invest hands on TLC - and someone has decided she is worth "saviing".
) to launch an E-zine / internet only magazine. Plenty of overlap from the existing titles so won't be starting from scratch nor need it's own full staff.........indeed subscriber generated content (but edited / approved by the E-zine - to lend credibility) would probably add volumes quickly. and cheaply 
..........and add in some targetted advertising, from Winches R Us etc 
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