I'll introduce myself first as this is my first post, my name is Chris and I've recently purchased Atheana pictured below (She's a Maurice Griffiths design and forerunner to the Golden Hind 26).
Unfortunately I've found a few soft spots in the ply which are going to need dealing with asap. Having read around the best (only) solution seems to be to cut out the rotting timber and a foot or so around and replace with new. However, I would appreciate advice on how this might best be done in the location concerned.
The patch I am most concerned about is just above the chine (Athaena has a single chine) on the starboard side.
The photo below is from the outside. You can see the sink outlet, starboard chine, bilge plate and keel behind. Almost dead centre in the image a small grey cross is scratched to mark the spot.
The next picture is take from the inside and the scratched away area to the left of the bradawl corresponds with the spot marked on the outside of the hull. You can see between the scratched area and the sink outlet is a piece of ply joining two sheets. The sheet to the left as pictured seems solid as does the backing piece.
My problem is that it's not just the ply that is soft, the timber that the bradawl is stuck into has the consistency of cheese! It appears to be a laminated affair built up from several planks (pieces of ply I think), the top facing plank seems sound, but those behind closer to the hull are very soft. Obviously this also needs replacing. It would seem to be an earlier repair as it doesn't match the appearance of the the same chine in the adjoining void immdeiately forward pictured below.
Obviously I need to cut out and replace the hull ply, but how do I "patch" the chine timber?
With a longer term view, would it be better to do a major replacement of much of this area now or would a good "patch" last as long as a "big repair", that is what is the most cost effective solution in the longer term?
All advice and encouragement very gratefully received!
What you have there is a very nice example of an Eventide and indeed a distant relative of the GH. Whowever built your boat seems to have done a good job - that curved transom looks good but is a pig to build.
I have a similar boat but built professionally by Hartwells of Plymouth who built all the early Golden Hinds. Fortunately my boat was Cascover sheathed to the rubbing strake so the lower part is like new. I have, however done many repairs to the ply and solid wood where water has got in on the deck and coachroof. I mostly patch in a similar way to the repair in your photo. However, I effectively biuld an epoxy composite of wood or ply laminations strengthened with glass cloth. I usually find the rot in the inner lamination of the original ply can go back quite a long way, but once I hit sound looking wood I leave it to dry out and then inject (in various ways) epoxy to stabilise it befor repairing the "hole". With solid wood such as chines and deck beams, provided about 50% of the section is sound it can be built up with a mixture of veneers, strips and glass. I have repairs to the rotten deck edges that were done like this over 20 years ago that are still perfect.
You may be able to strip off the current repair - I suspect it was not epoxy sealed - and rebuild using this technique. The alternative and some will argue, better approach is to go back further and replace the chine and re-panel. This is a major job and the chine has a double curve so will need laminating. I think patching, if done properly is a more practical method, but does require thinking about the best combination of materials in the circumstances.
You are welcome to come and look at my boat in Poole to see what can be done. Happy to help with further specific advice.
Thanks for the reply Tranona, Athaena is indeed an Eventide and is actually the only known example of the 'Athaena' design. There's plenty of information on the eventides.org.uk website (See the GH26 section on this page). She is possibly a closer relative to the Golden Hind than you imagine as her sail number is GH26/0 reflecting her almost prototype status.
No expoxy has been involved in the existing repairs. I was certainly planning to use expoxy as the adhesive for any repairs I make. I am also considering using epoxy to coat/seal any replacement panels as they are fitted, eventually by this method I would have the boat fully treated and constructed along the lines of contemporary ply/epoxy methods, alhough it might take me 30 years! Would differential movement between the epoxied and non-epoxied panels cause problems?
Although not clear in the photos, the panel that shows the rot is quite small and so replacin the entire panel may not be so difficult. It is very much the repair to the chine and ensuring the strength of that repair that is concerning me.
Thanks for the reply Tranona, Athaena is indeed an Eventide and is actually the only known example of the 'Athaena' design. There's plenty of information on the eventides.org.uk website (See the GH26 section on this page). She is possibly a closer relative to the Golden Hind than you imagine as her sail number is GH26/0 reflecting her almost prototype status.
Chris
Yes, it is all coming back to me now. I remember it from that time. I was quite friendly with Terry Erskine as we did the same Boat Shows at the end of the 70's. He actually worked on my boat when he was at Hartwells - he did his apprenticeship there (that was 1963). My boat was the first one that was built "properly". Commander Atkinson, who built the first Eventide Borer Bee in Singapore and sailed it back to the UK was working for Hartwells - then the coffin maker for Plymouth! He redrew the construction plans based on his experience building his boat. He claimed it was the first boat built that was the same shape on both sides! The owner was a Dr Fitzgerald who lived in Salcome. I have all his original logs.
Anyway, I remember seeing the first GH26 being built in one of my visits to Terry. He was also building a steel 39 at the same time. I have the original sales leaflet - like the one on the site with its wrong dimensions!. I also know Mark Urry who bought the design and building rights. I sailed with him in his first Erskine built GH which he finished from a bare wood hull and deck. He built 5 31s and rebuilt one of the 26s at his workshop just outside Dorchester. He had all the moulds and patterns for both. Details of them are on the Eventide website.
Back to your repair problem. As you say replacing the ply will be relatively easy as there is not much curve there. You may find it easier to do it in two layers. The chine will be more difficult if there is not enough left to build up. However the distance between frames at that point is not too great and if the botttom ply is sound it will provide support to keep the shape when you cut bits out. If you have not used epoxy then get yourself on the Wessex Resins one day course and buy the Gougeon Brothers book. You will find them invaluable and if you do it properly your repairs will be stronger than the original. There is no problem with mixing epoxy with traditional. I even repaired my cascover sheathing with epoxy and glass cloth.
My boat is now non-standard as I took the bilge plates off and deepened the keel by 9 inches and filled in the gaps between the skeg and keel so she looks like a Riptide with a big deep inboard rudder. Transformed the boat. Was out today and once again marvelled at how pleasant and steady she is! My other boat is a Bavaria so I have the best of both worlds!
I would suggest that you speak to Keith Woods at Newson Yachts in Lowestoft. They build Golden Hinds.. Keith is a great bloke, I am sure that he will be happy to provide advice...
Thanks for the advice and the interesting extra bit of history, once I get going with the repair I'll certainly take you up on your offer of PM advice. I'll watch out on Amazon and ebay for a sensibly priced copy of the Gougeon Brothers books.
Jon - That's a great suggestion I hadn't thought of, thanks
QUOTE:
With a longer term view, would it be better to do a major replacement of much of this area now or would a good "patch" last as long as a "big repair", that is what is the most cost effective solution in the longer term?End Quote.
The answer will be known 'After' you strip it down and see just how damage has been done and what is needed to repair it.
Repairs to ply hulls are not rocket science and remember, there are still some old ply hulled mine sweepers floating around from WW2, all built in a rush at the time but still surviving.
Tip, be very sure that any timber yo plan to apply epoxy to is very very dry and oil free. You can thin epoxy resin to improve penetration into timber by adding up to one third by volume to the epoxy resin mix. Oh, and never use chopped strand mat (CSM) with epoxy resin; you will use more resin and end up with a weaker and brittle result.
Hope this helps.
Avagoodweekend......
__________________ Growing old is unavoidable. However, growing up is still optional.
Thought I'd provide a quick update for those interested...
Having had lots of excellent advice, I was still feeling a bit nervous about launching my boat building career by cutting what would be quite a large hole in my hull. Everyone I'd asked locally suggested the same chap as the man locally to get hold of to do the work, he offered to do the work for a price I could manage. Feeling a bit of a "wooden boat sellout" not doing the work myself but ...
As you can see work has started, I was expecting a hole around that height but it goes about twice as far aft as I was expecting. However looks like it's cut back into good ply on the sides now. Here's a closer shot...
Other than the problem chine, which you can see has been chopped out, the other frames all seem to be good and solid.
Finally, here's a close up of the chine construction, you can see it's made up of three planks, stepped in the photo, which are shaped to form the chine.
Although I was expecting it, the hole was still quite a shock to the system. I'm glad I've got someone who knows what they are doing working on the boat, if I was nervous before I'd have been a wreck by the time I'd cut a hole that size! Next time round at least I'll have seen it being done
Suggest when you put it back together you get rid of that gate valve and replace it with a proper ball valve.
Definitely, it's in the boot of the car right now for that very reason. It was fiddly to reach and a pain to open and close, a ball valve will be a huge improvement
What a difference a day makes! Yesterday, I was feeling a bit down and wondering what I'd gotten myself into. Today, a very different scene greeted me compared with last weeks larger than expected hole.
All patched up again and looking great...
A close up ...
The replacement chine...
Now looks almost identical to the one next door...
The chine outside, note the plugged hole on the curve...
The lines are perfect...
I was speechless for sometime, then I was a real pain dragging half the boatyard over to look at my boat. I am delighted.
Work is progressing well on the transom too...
Outside...
Inside...
After some investigation (inside and outside the hull) the area on the underside of the hull by the keel just doesn't seem to be rotted timber.
This has been sanded back, investigated and now filled.
I've spent quite some time poking around this area and I'm happy with the decision just to fill it. If it does turn into a problem it can be sorted next winter, for now I'll just keep an eye on it.
I've been hesitating about undertaking a similar, but smaller repair on my restoration project, a 24ft ply sloop.
I was advised that a replacement panel should be scarphed in, but your operative seems to have used a butt joint. Any reason - apart from the old panel seems to have been taken away to the stringers, so a butt joint is probably original.
__________________
I think, therefore I am. I am, therefore I sail.
I was advised that a replacement panel should be scarphed in, but your operative seems to have used a butt joint.
You can do either, a scarphed repair is invisible, a but joint with a backing piece is a visible repair. If you do a butt joint you must put a backing piece behind the joint and make sure there's plenty of expoxy protecting the end grain of the ply. You can clearly see the backing piece on the transom internal photo.
Either repair is watertight if done correctly, but getting a scarph done is a lot more expensive.
Use top quality marine ply (I requested Robbins Super Elite) and epoxy the end grain of the joint.
The repair wasn't taken back to the stringers, you shouldn't do that the surface area is great enough behind the joint, on the left it's back to a strap behind an original joint and on the right a new backing piece was added.
A half lap onto the surrounding panel would not have gone amis. Easily cut with a router and no straps req'd. If you were feeling flash you could step it twice, but by the time you had done that you could have pulled out the scarph jig and routed in a scarph down three sides.
Just a thought!
A half lap onto the surrounding panel would not have gone amis. Easily cut with a router and no straps req'd. If you were feeling flash you could step it twice, but by the time you had done that you could have pulled out the scarph jig and routed in a scarph down three sides.
Just a thought!
I had to repair a skiff for a client that had been impaled by a bowsprit during a race. Cut out a square and scarphed it then cut a frame of ply to fit inside the hole with an overlap, ran the router round about 2 ply deep on the outer exposed section, then did the same on the patch as well as scarphing all edges to prevent the outer layer being pushed in.
Applied thinned epoxy (30% Methylated Spirits) till it would take no more than added some fibres to the mix and coated the join area taking care not to squeeze too much resin out. Cleaned up the excess resin and let it cure for 24 hours.
Sanded smooth, applied a couple of coats of thinned resin, then full strength over the top. After curing the surface was given a very light sanding with a 250 grit and wiped with acetone then two coats of high build epoxy primer.
Later that was sprayed with a 2 pack (International Interspray 900) and came up perfect. That must have been 12 + years ago and still looks great today.
Avagoodweekend......
Tip: To help get the resin into the end grain of ply, lay the ply on a flat surface on thin plastic sheeting, place a stick close th edge and drape the plastic over it, this will give you a small dam to hold the liquid resin close to the ply so it soaks is without having to do 10 trips wetting and re wetting the edges, just top up the dam, when it stops dropping use the resin on the race of the ply.
.
__________________ Growing old is unavoidable. However, growing up is still optional.
timber boat that get fresh water,rainwater or fresh condensates in rot very fast. The salt help to prevent any fungal attacks (dry rot) which can profligate in damp condition .If the timber is well protected from moisture absorption . The salt helps to stop any fungal growths attacking the timber.
Wet rot is a nuisance but If you get dry rot fungus then you can kiss good by to the boat.
Its worth putting timber fill its on the tops of ribs etc to stop drips collecting
and make sure your limber holes in the bilges are free and clear
Don't forget this is a hard chine Ply boat and should be watertight. Provided you stop rain water from getting in through joints and fastenings (hence the importance of using epoxy on end grain in glued joints), just paint is more than edequate protection. I use Danboline internally up to the waterline and conventional paint above. Externally, if not sheathed a proper paint system is adequate, but some prefer to coat with epoxy first. Remedies and protection suitable for conventional timber construction are largely irrelevant.
Are you planning to coat the exposed ply and timbers?
Epoxy encapsulation is not necessarily the panaceae it may first appear to be. If I was building a new boat from scratch I certainly would epoxy encapsulate and put glass cloth on the outside. Retropsectively applying epoxy to just the outside of the boat does little to inhibit the internal freshwater that is the cause of most rot. Applying epoxy to the inside and effectively covering the entire internal surface without leaving any bare spots where water could penetrate behind would be next to impossible. One thing worse than water in the plywood is water in the plywood behind epoxy.
She's 30 years old and reached that age through the use of good quality plywood and being painted inside and out. I'm sticking to that successful approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanick
A half lap onto the surrounding panel would not have gone amis.
It wasn't a joint in the plywood that failed, it was where freshwater had been held against the old chine log and hull in the middle of a panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fergie_mac66
timber boat that get fresh water,rainwater or fresh condensates in rot very fast.
Its worth putting timber fill its on the tops of ribs etc to stop drips collecting
I've not decided on the final solution yet, but I am planning on doing something to make sure that water doesn't collect somewhere other than in the bilge. I've thought about fillets but if you look in one of the pictures where the hole is cut above, you can see the member that the sink drain gate valve is sitting on. You can see the angle of the hull means that water would have to flow up and over some members.
As for salt, I'm a little puzzled by that one, I understand the idea to tackle the freshwater, but it does attract moisture and what stops it dissolving away into the bilges? I was thinking Intertox or some other sort of penetrating fungicide/preservative treatment before painting would be a good start.
Plywood boats can't be made rot-proof, but on the flipside they are almost infinitely repairable.
well salt is the old remedy. Intertox etc will do it but if wood epoxied then no penetration ( also serious poisons). I think the theory is the roots of dry rot (not called roots can't remember name) are microscopic they tunnel through anything into the into wood can spread right thought out the boat unseen. Little enclosed area small amount of fresh water moisture and dark,fungus can gro quickly.Salt stops fungus spores dead can't grow. the wood is protected from wet rot by epoxy and paint. well vented clean bilges common sense but there's aways that little spot . The moisture evaporates in warm weather but leaves the salt behind .Wet rot easy to cure cut and replace
mind you old remedy could be old wives tale but it makes sense as salt is a preservative
mind you old remedy could be old wives tale but it makes sense as salt is a preservative
No you're right, that's why rot is generally a consequence of freshwater getting in. I just couldn't quite understand how salt could be used in practice. Obviously it needs to be more sophisticated than throwing a packet of saxa into the bilge. I'd actually prefer it if the inside of the hull wasn't painted and then I could give it a good preservative spray once a year.
I think mycelia is the "roots" word you're looking for.
I'm trying to learn to relax as a wooden boat owner. OK the plywood will rot in time but it's quickly replaced and looking round there are plenty of GRP and steel boats with problems of their own. Most are considerably younger too.
mind you old remedy could be old wives tale but it makes sense as salt is a preservative
This bit is right - salt is a preservative and salt water is preferable to fresh. However what you are proposing may be applicable to "traditional" wood boats which absorb water and leak. However, it is not applicable to Ply boats which are composite (wood and glue and maybe epoxy) where the intention is to eliminate leaks and keep the material stable. This can be done as already noted by ensuring there are no paths for fresh water to get into the ply and ensuring that any water (salt or fresh) does not lie in pools anywhere. If this is done, conventional paint finishes are perfectly adequate, inside and out, although my preference would be for epoxy coating as a primer. The rot on this case, common in this design would have been caused by a freshwater leak.
As I have noted several times here, my boat to almost the same design is 46 years old and has no rot in the main hull structure because it is sheathed on the outside, painted on the inside and no fresh water can get in. The less well protected upper works on the other hand has (or had) localised rot where fresh water has penetrated at bad joints or poorly sealed fittings. So far none has been extensive enough to resort to the scale of repair on Chris's boat - but as he says once you bite the bullet it is quite straightforward, but does require a bit of skill to get it right.
No worries, nice job though. Just paint her up as usual and its probably the only repair you will have to do for years.
I hope so! Although the work looks drastic by the end of this winter hopefully everything I knew of, that I have found or that the surveyor found will be completely sorted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranona
Thought of putting salt into a well built yacht gives me the shivers.
Bad for your heart too Maybe it should be lo-salt?
Plywood hull and chine repair advice
I was thinking Intertox or some other sort of penetrating fungicide/preservative treatment before painting would be a good start.
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