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Advantages of Part One over SSR?
Helping a mate spec a new boat which will be going to parts foreign.
Are there good reasons to go for part one over SSR (finance house not involved)?
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Not that I can see. We have Part 1 as we bought the boat originally with assistance from a finance company. I am considering dropping it and going to SSR as the costs are considerably less.
Part 1 does show legal title, and any charges against the title for finance thus if selling it does show firstly that you own the boat and that there is no outstanding finance against it. It thus does tell you a bit more than a car registration document or SSR.
Unless you have a pretty good document trail getting part 1 on a secondhand boat may be difficult. SSR you just pay the mioney.
The only real difference is that it is a record of the beneficial ownership as to get the registration you need to submit evidence such as the Bill of Sale. However it is the Bill of Sale which provides the legal title. if the only requirement is a document to prove to foreign officials that the boat is registered in the UK then SSR does the job.
To get Part 1, you have to jump through a few hoops to prove ownership to the MCA so, whilst not absolute proof of ownership, it's as good as it gets. It also looks quite good at proving VAT Paid..... In my, (fathers), case, the MCA wanted to see bills of sale back to the dealer who sold her as new.
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Rogue - Moody 44, (For Sale) - Glasson Dock
I jumped through all sorts of hoops, and spent a load of money to get Part 1 registration, which was supposed to be for all time. Then "They" changed the rules, and now it only lasts for four or five years. I call that theft and fraud. But of course it's a government department.....
I jumped through all sorts of hoops, and spent a load of money to get Part 1 registration, which was supposed to be for all time. Then "They" changed the rules, and now it only lasts for four or five years. I call that theft and fraud. But of course it's a government department.....
Yes, part one Guernsey is the way to go. You still get a nice Blue Book with a written record of ownership, which goes a long way to impress at sale time.
I don't know what it costs, maybe 300/400 quid and 75 at change of ownership, in other words a tiny amount in respect of a new boat.
It lasts the life of the boat - now. I understand they have changes in train, so for the future who knows, I guess they have politicians in the CI's as well
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Doesn't Guernsey imply some tax dodge?
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I have ssr and trundle around various foreign places no problem at all. 25 quid. I think p1 quite a bit more for no obvous benefit.
Actually, i have sometimes thought of registering the boat in Mondrovia. This is one of the newer entrants to the EU, and costs nothing at all to register, and you print up and laminate your own bit of cardboard. Mondrovia doesn't exist, but does it make a difference, really?
I think for SSR you have to be resident in the UK but not necessarily British. Where as for part one you just have to be some kind of British Citizen, but not necesssarily resident.
Probably.
But my Blue Book tells me that the first owners of my boat were Lord and Lady Muffin (name changed to protect their privicy) and that thought keeps me warm through the dark months.
The Part1 Registration document has been superceded by a laminated piece of card that MCA now issue. I still retained my blue book and all the paperwork. Imperial measurements and all !
Does Part 1 avoid having silly little numbers painted on the outside of your boat? (My old boat was originally Part 2 registered which required even bigger numbers!)
Does Part 1 avoid having silly little numbers painted on the outside of your boat? (My old boat was originally Part 2 registered which required even bigger numbers!)
Yes, but you have to carve your Official Number into the main transverse beam. However on the new fangled plastic boats you are allowed a carved board provided it is permanently attached to a major structural member such as the main bulkhead.
The Part1 Registration document has been superceded by a laminated piece of card that MCA now issue. I still retained my blue book and all the paperwork. Imperial measurements and all !
ianat182
Great thanks for that I have the new laminated piece of card. I was beginning to wonder where my blue book was. They managed to issue my Pt I Registration Certificate initially with the expire date before the issue date. What a load of tw$ts. Anyway they sorted it out and sent me the corrected document.
On the Certificate my name and address is listed under the section titled "Name and Address of Owner(s)", however it states under the Section "Important Information" that a "Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".
The Bill of Sale, Department of Transport Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (Form 4705 Rev 9/02) is the only document that I have which states that I am the owner and that the previous owners have have transferred the ownership (or part of) "free from encumbrances". This supports the comments made by a previous poster Tranona.
My assumption is that this does mean that I am the legal owner.
So to sum up (as Richard 10002 wisely said) it is as good as it gets and considerably better than the SSR.
If you have a MAB or an average AWB go for the cheap alternative. If you are buying a new and expensive boat you would be a right mug not to have it part 1 registered.
The Blue Book has not be discontinued and Guernsey (and as far as I know Jersey) will sort one out for you.
If you are buying a new and expensive boat you would be a right mug not to have it part 1 registered.
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Why should it be any difference with an "expensive" boat? The legal trail of ownership is through the Bills of Sale. All the registration provides is a record of this. The only advantage of Part 1 registration is to allow charges such as finance house interests to be registered against the boat which makes sale without discharging more difficult. However there is no compulsion to register a charge nor any compulsion to notify the registrar of any changes so the record is only as good as the information provided by the person responsible (usually the owner). The other part of registration which is establishing the Tonnage is again of little use as yachts are not subject to Tonnage related charges in the UK. That is not true in many other countries so the SSR has a record of Tonnage, but it is not verified so most are guesses - but satisfy foreign authorities because they are on an official document!
Yes, part one Guernsey is the way to go. You still get a nice Blue Book with a written record of ownership, which goes a long way to impress at sale time.
I don't know what it costs, maybe 300/400 quid and 75 at change of ownership, in other words a tiny amount in respect of a new boat.
It lasts the life of the boat - now. I understand they have changes in train, so for the future who knows, I guess they have politicians in the CI's as well
very proud of my blue book Guernsey, but then, I live here...! Prices as quoted above are accurate, I found the local registry very helpful in fillling in all the details. A friend carved me the board for the details and very nice it is too, attached to the structural cross beam. I had to drill out the cross heads on the screws and fill with epoxy to fulfil the criteria to ensure it was not 'liftable'!
(and we do have politicians here...nuff said)
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This is very informative,thank you. Is there a european standard way to register yachts or does each country have her own equivalant to SSR/Part 1? To digress I had the old blue book on a `historic`fishing boat,it`s a satisfying historical document,solid to hold it in your hand unlike a bit of plastic. And have any yachtsmen `flagged out` to Panama for example for any reason? Good watch Jerry
Part One Reg also requires a specific port of registration which must be displayed on the transom. The ports are pre-defined by MCA and you can choose which one.
So you decide to name a yacht Sweet Fanny Adams of Quaintport, but then add somewhere yucky like Southampton, London or whatever as well.
No. No standard system although almost all countries have some form of registration. In many cases it is compulsory and much more bureaucratic than in the UK. For example in Greece it cost me nearly £1000 to put my boat on the charter register and £700 to deregister it. The SSR was introduced as a simple of way of identifying a small boat as being registered in the UK to satisfy foreign authorities. It means that normally (in line with the UN convention) you can enter their waters without having to comply with the local registration requirements.
For a fuller explanation see the RYA site on Taking Your Boat Abroad.
In what way? If boats on the SSR are difficult to sell why are so many sold?
I cannot see how it can make any difference, but happy to learn that I may be wrong!
Well it is like this:
If my next boat is a Mcgreggor 26 then I am quite happy to save 400 quid and have a useless piece of encapsulated card that looks like I have taken third prize in a choirboys sack race. The person I sell it to is probably quite happy too.
If my next boat is a Swan 45 then saving £400 is probably not the top of my agenda. I will want the useful and imposing Blue Book. So will the chap who buys it from me down the line.
You have to interpolate between the two cases. Two identical boats, the one on Part 1 will sell first.
Better title, pretty paperwork, human nature.
If my next boat is a Mcgreggor 26 then I am quite happy to save 400 quid and have a useless piece of encapsulated card that looks like I have taken third prize in a choirboys sack race. The person I sell it to is probably quite happy too.
If my next boat is a Swan 45 then saving £400 is probably not the top of my agenda. I will want the useful and imposing Blue Book. So will the chap who buys it from me down the line.
You have to interpolate between the two cases. Two identical boats, the one on Part 1 will sell first.
Better title, pretty paperwork, human nature.
Sorry to disapoint you - but today the part one registration document is just a piece on encapsulated greenish card.
That is just plain silly. The paperwork is no longer "pretty", just a scrap of laminated card. It is not proof of title - the Bill of Sale is that. So your last point is the only one that is true. Some people seem to like largely worthless pieces of paper!
Actually I rather like my Blue Book made out in best copperplate by the registrar in Plymouth in 1963. My daughters were always disappointed that the box for allowance for apprentice accommodation was empty! Lovely curio and conversation piece for nerds but that is all!
Somewhat perversely I rather like the SSR on my expensive boat. Such a little piece of paper is so powerful in the right situation!
BTW I would love to see your evidence to support your statement that a Part 1 registered boat would sell first!
And have any yachtsmen `flagged out` to Panama for example for any reason?
As a British expatriate working abroad for a UK company who could not fulfil the UK residence part of the Part III SSR application, I once registered my yacht, based in the Mediterranean, under the Austrian flag. It was an easy and cheap alternative with a far more impressive registration document than the SSR.
Personally I can't see a benefit to Part 1 - it just costs more and as someone pointed out it now needs to be renewed (paid for) every 5 years. We have had 2 boats which came with Part 1 and one with SSR. Not seen any difference in selling terms. We also had a marine mortgage on the SSR registered one with no problem. However I haven't been to far places so bow to the knowledge of those who have.
The only bit I thought was really worth the extra cost with Part 1 on our Macwester 26 was the bit listing No. of funnels
For those of you who believe that SSR is the way to go, a word of caution: some years ago I bought a new boat without finance from a manufacturer appointed sales agent and then found, some weeks later the boat chained and padlocked to the pontoon. The agent had used stock finance to purchase the boat from the builder and despite receiving cash from me had not paid off the stock finance; the bill of sale, by the way, showed that there were no encumbrances.
Had I applied for Part 1 registration, the MCA would have found that the boat was mortgaged.
Luckily, the agent found some money (before he went bust some weeks later) to pay off the stock finance and the chain was removed.
However, I had a very worrying 2 weeks where I thought I had lost £250,000 with no legal recourse whatsoever.
Apparently using stock finance to buy boats from builders is standard practice among sales agents, so if your boat is worth more than a few bob, you now know the way to go!
When cruising in the more bureaucratic parts of the EU the maxim is the more bits of official paper you have to show the better!. I perfectly understand the arguement that SSR is the cheaper alternative, and this is seemingly good for most countries. But believe you me that the bigger the 'paper trail' you have in Southern Europe to show officials the less hassle you get.
Yes, part one Guernsey is the way to go. You still get a nice Blue Book with a written record of ownership, which goes a long way to impress at sale time.
I don't know what it costs, maybe 300/400 quid and 75 at change of ownership, in other words a tiny amount in respect of a new boat.
It lasts the life of the boat - now. I understand they have changes in train, so for the future who knows, I guess they have politicians in the CI's as well
We found that the Part 1 document ( it's a laminated sheet really) smoothed the path with various marina offices and port officials on our trip down to the Med and back. In legal terms it is a much more substantial document than SSR. We have just renewed ours at a cost of £49 for the next five years. Comparing this with the CI registration option and assuming your top figure of £400, I make it that the MCA route buys you 100 years. I know we are living for longer, but really! The other point to remember is that the Channel Islands are not in the EC and this can cause problems with some authorities for craft registered there, especially in terms of long term stays abroad. I wonder if the real attraction is the acquisition of the Blue Book of fond memory to UK owners.
That link is to the States of Guernsey ships register. It is clear from the thread that Guernsey does still provide a snazzy document to show port officials. However to the best of my knowledge the UK authority no longer does so. I just have an A4 laminated document for Part I.
If a yacht is registered in Guernsey then you would then no longer be able to apply for a warrant to wear a defaced British ensign should that be a privilege of your club.
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Last edited by Leighb; 31-10-09 at 13:55.
Reason: missing word
For those of you who believe that SSR is the way to go, a word of caution: some years ago I bought a new boat without finance from a manufacturer appointed sales agent and then found, some weeks later the boat chained and padlocked to the pontoon. The agent had used stock finance to purchase the boat from the builder and despite receiving cash from me had not paid off the stock finance; the bill of sale, by the way, showed that there were no encumbrances.
Had I applied for Part 1 registration, the MCA would have found that the boat was mortgaged.
Luckily, the agent found some money (before he went bust some weeks later) to pay off the stock finance and the chain was removed.
However, I had a very worrying 2 weeks where I thought I had lost £250,000 with no legal recourse whatsoever.
Apparently using stock finance to buy boats from builders is standard practice among sales agents, so if your boat is worth more than a few bob, you now know the way to go!
Not sure being on Part 1 would have helped. As far as I know the registrar does not do a search it only registers the interest when informed by the lender. So they would have had no way of knowing that your boat was security against a loan. Your recourse would be to the dealer because he did not fulfil the contract by selling you a boat free of encumbrance. Not that it would have helped if he had no money anyway. In dealer finance the lender cannot register their interest because the boat itself is not registered.
This is a good example of the misconception of the strength of title Part 1 gives. There is no compulsion to register a charge, although of course most do. Similarly it is not as is claimed legal title. It is only confirmation because you cannot register the boat without a Bill of Sale (among other documents). It is the Bill of Sale that gives legal title to the registered owner.
Blue book has a certain snob value but it still gives a good impression to some foreign officials with comments like "nice document", and my boat is a low value job.
On a new build (of value) I would go for part 1 simply as easiest time to do & might help a bit when selling (evidence of title and no debts, albeit not absolute proof) and although I might not need finance a buyer might.........plus I just feel part 1 is more proper
But it don't matter at all in practice abroad.
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
I've just gone through process to get Part 1 Reg. and it was mostly pretty simple (but it 's a 2009 boat so documentation easy to sort out). They were picky though and I had a document returned because dealer had missed both our middle names (joint ownership). Perversely, they were happy for myself and my wife to cross out out middle names and initial beside the change (both sets of initials included our middle initial).
My previous boat had the Blue book (still have it for nostalgic reasons) and it was much nicer than the laminated replacement. I went for part one because it might help when selling (buyer might need finance), it might help abroad (once is enough) and I can fly a blue ensign if I wish.
Reg. process not quite complete yet for a silly reason. I thought the surveyor, register of shipping, RYA etc. would be able to tell me where to buy a Tonnage Board. Unfortunately not, so still looking.
Nauticalia do a brass engraved version for around £45 (£30 + £10 engraving + £5 p&P). I rather fancied the same type of carved board my old boat had rather than a brass plate.
Perhaps they are too expensive and nobody buys them any more. I wonder if anyone knows someone who sells the wooden version?
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Last edited by Mistroma; 03-11-09 at 19:36.
Reason: Minor change
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Dunno, but any craft wood carver should be able to turn one out pretty easily. Ask at a country fair.
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Location: 'ang on a mo, I'll just take some bearings
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Y'all - thanks for a comprehensive set of replies.
Buddy will go for Part One.
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There are three kinds of people:
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Y'all - thanks for a comprehensive set of replies.
Buddy will go for Part One.
Sorry Twister Ken, I overlooked the nature of your earlier post.
If your chum went for Part I Guernsey he will get the inestimable Blue Book. Thus any perspective buyer can view it, see the registered address of the owner/seller, check this against the known facts about who is offering the boat for sale. Sneak a peek at the previous owner/s and his address/s, contact them and make some enquiries about the history of the boat. Most people are only too happy to chat about boats - you can learn a lot. Of couse your friend is not buying, he would be selling, but as an honest man, with a good boat, this is all to his advantage.
Add to this the fact that the register may be inspected at St Peter Port on production a tenner, and that the staff are very helpful, and that the book forms a permanent (almost romantic) record of changes to the boat and it's keepers; it adds up to a useful package.
He is also likely to avoid that rotten tax on his annual insurance premium, even if berthed in the UK. He should approach his insurance company on this one, and go at them hard. I cannot see any way at all he should pay this if he is keeping the boat overseas.
He might consider fitting out in the CI to avoid VAT on his UK goods but that is another matter.
I only take my boat to the immediate coasts of France where CI boats are ten a penny, so the validity of the registration in the eyes of officials is not an issue. In the wider world I do not know, in the Med or across the atlantic, who would know Guernsey was not UK? It is in the same loose grouping of northern European registration states.
Perhaps another post: Guerney Registration.. any Problems? might yield some info.
I have nothing to do with the CI tourist board! I have a Guernsey registration by chance, but I have found their service excellent. If I were ever in the fortunate position of having a new build, it would be Guernsey registered Part1.
Last edited by doug748; 03-11-09 at 21:30.
Reason: sp
How romantic! Apart from the Blue Book, rather than a certificate and longer validity, there is absolutely no advantage in registering a boat in Guernsey for a UK based person. An MCA Part 1 gives you all of the same benefits (if you believe they are benefits) and a Part 3 gives all the benefits apart from a registration of title (but does not actually confer title - that is the Bill of Sale) and the ability to register a charge. The SSR is accepted everywhere in the world as evidence of UK registration - indeed it was introduced for that sole purpose.
So the only practical reason for going on Part 1 is that it allows registration of charges - but even then the lack of a registration of a charge does not mean that there is no charge over the boat.
Please explain the "rotten tax on his insurance" and why fitting out a boat in Guernsey to avoid VAT is a benefit that needs registration in Guernsey. If he keeps his boat in the UK he can do that anyway - if he wants to break the law by importing goods from the Channel Islands into the EU/UK without paying VAT. Insurance tax (a tiny amount) is payable where the contract is written, not where the boat is kept. I have just renewed the insurance on my boat in Greece with a UK underwriter - and have paid legitimately the 5% tax. If I insured it with an underwriter in another country it would be subject to the taxes (if any) in that country.
Suspect there is some rose tinted spectacle stuff going on here rather than an understanding of the real world facts.
How romantic! Apart from the Blue Book....and longer validity,
Aye too true brother, apart from that -
and the standard of service
and the better title
and the avoidance of insurance tax
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Aye too true brother, apart from that -
and the standard of service
and the better title
and the avoidance of insurance tax
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Why is the "standard of service" that you describe so important. My SSR was done on line and with me by return. What more do you need and it only cost £25
Once and for all there is no "better title". All you get is registration of the title, but as this depends on sight by the registrar of the original document of title, the Bill of Sale, it is meaningless. Try selling a boat just on the basis of the "Blue Book" as evidence of title.
Please explain how it allows you to avoid the "insurance tax". You can insure your boat anywhere you like, Any tax is based on where the insurance is written, not on the location or registry status of the boat.
As I have said, there is nothing wrong in ascribing personal value to that type of registration - just don't claim it does things it does not.
Once and for all there is no "better title". All you get is registration of the title, but as this depends on sight by the registrar of the original document of title, the Bill of Sale, it is meaningless. Try selling a boat just on the basis of the "Blue Book" as evidence of title.
No better title? Given that neither are proof of title then you are correct. However, the Blue Book / part 1 provides better supporting evidence of title - whether that matters enough to be "better" will depend on the purchasor.
Selling a boat just on the basis of the blue book? Given some of the posts on YBW.com some will be happy on buying with way less documentation than that.......if anything at all
But as I said in a previous post (well, it was a previous post - it might now be a later post ) SSR is adequate registration, even if I personally would go for Blue Book / Part 1 for a new boat, especially one of a higher value.
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
Glad you agree with me. As the Blue Book information is dependent on there being a valid Bill of Sale, it gives no more information on ownership than the original document.
You are right - people buy and sell boats that are short of documentation, but as you cant have a Blue Book registration without a Bill of Sale there seems a certain amount of redundancy.
I had to make a choice of Part 1 or SSR for my expensive boat. I chose SSR simply on cost grounds as the survey cost in Greece would have more than doubled the cost. However, I own it outright, am only the second documented owner and if a future buyer wanted to secure finance against it then Part 1 registration would be simple. In the meantime the SSR is fine.
I already have a Part 1 registered boat and can get my nostalgia kick from looking at its Blue Book if I want!
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Where to get carved Tonnage board?
) SSR is adequate registration, even if I personally would go for Blue Book / Part 1 for a new boat, especially one of a higher value.
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