Good. You are now getting close to what I have been arguing. It is never "mine is better than yours". It is the belief that things were better in the past and that 1970'-90's boats were better built etc etc - when this is just not the case - that I question.
In one sense I think many boats then were "better built" - because the materials were new and the computer models weren't anything like as sophisticated as we have now, good builders tended to use lots of materials just in case. The result could be very solid boats. Boats today are almost certainly better designed than they were then, and can therefore get away with being more lightly built. That doesn;t mean "too lightly", just "more lightly". Good news for racing, perhaps not such good news for cruing in thirty years. We'll have to wait and see.
As a comparison, I know a chap with a Bolkow Phoebus, which is the every first production GRP glider from the late fifties. Compared to modern glider it's massive: 225kg empty as compared to 180kg for a modern SZD-59 Diana with vastly better performance. That's because people didn't know what they could get away with in GRP then, and tended to overdo things a bit. On the other hand they have turned out to be extremely durable, with an awful lot of the 250 or so built still flying half a century later.
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Such economies mean that ordinary people like me can afford a 37 footer when my father (if he were a sailor) would perhaps have seen a Centaur as the ultimate goal.
It would be interesting to look at how the prices in real terms compare. I haven't found the necessary prices with a quick google, but will return to it some time ...
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It may well be that my Kevlar reinforced hull will turn into cream cheese and my keel will fall off or crack in 20 years time - but I don't think so. As I said earlier, I hope I am still around to see it - whatever happens.
You'll just have to hope that more accurate design makes up for lighter construction. I have my doubts, but the only way to settle it is to meet up in thirty years time and compare notes. And enjoy sailing in the meantime.
Next weekend, all being well, I collect my "new" boat. Twenty five years old and I have chosen to buy something built like a brick outhouse rather than spend half as much on a lighter boat of the same length ... and rather than getting 30% more length of flimsier boat for the money. That's my choice - not better or worse than yours, just different. Wouldn't it be boring if we all sailed the same things?
It would be interesting to look at how the prices in real terms compare. I haven't found the necessary prices with a quick google, but will return to it some time ...
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A Centaur in the 70's would have been about 2 times my earnings (I was quite well paid) and a Moody 36 would have been in the stratosphere. In 1976 I bought a Seawych 19 kit for I think about £2300 when my salary was about £6k. My Bavaria 37 in 2001 was about 3 times my poverty wages as a university lecturer!
A Centaur in the 70's would have been about 2 times my earnings (I was quite well paid) and a Moody 36 would have been in the stratosphere. In 1976 I bought a Seawych 19 kit for I think about £2300 when my salary was about £6k. My Bavaria 37 in 2001 was about 3 times my poverty wages as a university lecturer!
Assuming some climbing up the salary scale - guessing that in real terms your salary now is about 50% more than it was in the 70s, doesn't that make the Bavaria twice the cost of a Centaur in real terms? I've just spent half a year's university lecturer salary on a second hand 26 footer ... NOT a Centaur!
Early plastics, ref the Bolkow glider. The Windecker Eagle was an early 4 seat composite (epoxy) aircraft. The FAA were worried about the new technology, and made them over spec the structure. Got into a flat spin on early test flights and the pilot had to bail out (he deployed the anti spin chute, but the g forces made him jettison it at the same time) After recovering the plane, they said everything aft of the firewall was reusable.
In this thread.. Looking at the first pic, the bits don't line up. If a repair was attempted, the welder would at least set it up so the bits matched. If not, some filler would make it look reasonable. Neither seems to have been tried. Begs a question (or 2..3) about the quality of the repair, and the owners acceptance of it.
Did the OP ask the previous owner (6yrs) or just walk. I may have missed something it.
A
In this thread.. Looking at the first pic, the bits don't line up. If a repair was attempted, the welder would at least set it up so the bits matched. If not, some filler would make it look reasonable. Neither seems to have been tried. Begs a question (or 2..3) about the quality of the repair, and the owners acceptance of it.
Did the OP ask the previous owner (6yrs) or just walk. I may have missed something it.
Cooled off but waiting to hear circumstances of accident, repair, & survey details before making a final call. Repair does look poor, but might have been a long time ago - filler since cracked & fell away? Yacht is supposed to have been recently surveyed for insurance purposes so the truth is out there.
Incidentally - how would I track down the previous owner?
Cooled off but waiting to hear circumstances of accident, repair, & survey details before making a final call. Repair does look poor, but might have been a long time ago - filler since cracked & fell away? Yacht is supposed to have been recently surveyed for insurance purposes so the truth is out there.
Incidentally - how would I track down the previous owner?
It doesn't look like that has ever been 'repaired' - the two parts of the keel don't even line up. What's worrying is that the damage inside has been (how can I put this without appearing rude?) 'disguised'. If that's been the approach, then what else is lurking?
Anyway, to answer your question, there should be a bill of sale from the previous owner to the current one which should have the P.O.'s name and address on it. (There may also be old reciepts, surveys, etc. which will corroborate this). The broker should be able to get the paperwork for you to see. (If he can't, then that's another problem!)
Edit to add: The vendor must know who they bought it off, and they want the sale, so let them do the donkey work in tracking down the PO for *you* to talk to. /edit
Repair does look poor, but might have been a long time ago - filler since cracked & fell away?
Might explain how the current owner acquired it - didn't know. if I was him would be tempting to tidy it up with an angle grinder and some more filler.............
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
You doubt that material science and manufacturing techniques have advanced in the last 30 years? Go compare an Austin Princess with a VW Passat.
Sigh.
Of course materials science and manufacturing techniques have changed. So what? A modern SZD-59 Diana is a far faster, lighter glider than a 1980's Astir 77, thanks to modern materials and manufacturing technques. The glider industry, though, has by and large taken advantages of modern materials and manufacturing techniques to make things lighter and cheaper, not stronger.
No-one doubts that Bavaria and other modern yacht mass producers have taken full advantage of advances in materials technology, manufacturing techniques and computer aided design and stress analysis. They have done it, though, in order to bring the relative cost of 37-footers down to where 32 footers were perhaps fifteen years ago and where Centaurs were thirty years ago. That's fine. If you want a big, new, boat they are cheaper now than they have ever been. But they are cheaper largely because they use less material - albeit better material - more cleverly positioned than designers could do thirty years ago. Sometime that's fine. Sometimes - wobble wobble wobble - it isn't.
In general, though, overspecced designs last longer than lightweights. Want a car example to match yours? OK, compare that Austin Princess with a Land Rover of the day. What you are sailing, basically, is a Ford Mondeo. Great design, excellent handling, built down to a price. Lasts longer than a 1976 Escort, but nowhere near as well built as a BMW or a Mercedes. Mondeos are popular with fleet buyers because you get a lot of car for your money and they last long enough - which may not mean long.
As I have said, I'm not assuming that modern lightweight designs (including but limited to your revered Bavaria) will fail unduly soon. In the very nature of the thing, though, the designers and the builders will have sailed a LOT closer to the wind than the more expensive makers - and only time will tell how cleverly they've done it.
Do you, as a matter of interest, how confident are you that your Bavaria 37 will last and age just as well as a Hallberg-Rassy 37?
Hybrid Mode
