Isn’t just amazing how the British and US government can invade other country in the name of human right , patrol the seas and ocean of the world to stop drug trafficking , intimidate lawful people from cruising in the name of border control , but can’t patrol and stop a bunch of thieving kidnapping thugs in a small sea area compared with the world ocean , could it be because there isn’t any oil or other commentary that is of any valve to them ? ?
We have a pathetic & poorly equipped Navy with few ships available and even if we had, the MoD cannot afford it. We would need a Navy the size of which we had 70 years ago to even dent the problem.
You shouldn't be surprised. After all, the UK populace are ruled and regimented to within an inch of our lives. If you're law abiding, employed and have something to lose your fair game.
Unemployed, on drugs, benefits and don't give a flying fig about anyone or anything you're pretty much free to do as you wish.
Our law enforcement and law makers always look for the easy option. Got a problem? Just introduce a new law (irrespective of the fact the existing laws, if properly used, are sufficient). Then sit back and tell us that you've done something by making it illegal.
Can't attack the pirates, they've got rights you know.
70 years ago we didn’t have the technology we have to day the bottom line is there nothing in it for the US,UK government otherwise it wouldn’t be going on , I bet if it was a load of afghan smuggled arms or drugs they soon put a stop to it . Before long there be pirates all over the world if this isn’t brought to a stop .
Well they could start by sinking all they find including those on board.
I think you'll find that there's a word for sinking ships and killing their crews just for being in a particular area of international waters. Piracy. And murder. Two words.
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Originally Posted by sailaboutvic
70 years ago we didn’t have the technology we have to day the bottom line is there nothing in it for the US,UK government otherwise it wouldn’t be going on , I bet if it was a load of afghan smuggled arms or drugs they soon put a stop to it . Before long there be pirates all over the world if this isn’t brought to a stop .
And look how successful the navies of the world have been at ending drug smuggling, eh?
The best way to stop the piracy happening is to make not-being-a-pirate attractive. Sure, that may include having some ships which can fight back, but supporting the rebuilding of Somalia and ending the illegal fishing and dumping in Somali waters would probably be much more effective.
Why we do not just block the pirate ports so they cannot get their hostages and ships to port I don't know - if Somlia is that lawless they are hardly going to get a lot of diplomatic complaints and its about time they used more that kid glove force against them
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I think you'll find that there's a word for sinking ships and killing their crews just for being in a particular area of international waters. Piracy. And murder. Two words.
And look how successful the navies of the world have been at ending drug smuggling, eh?
The best way to stop the piracy happening is to make not-being-a-pirate attractive. Sure, that may include having some ships which can fight back, but supporting the rebuilding of Somalia and ending the illegal fishing and dumping in Somali waters would probably be much more effective.
PLEASE.. wake up and smell the coffee... this is an organised crime ring cashing in on easy pickings, it's got nothing to do with rebuilding somalia, but you are very right on one point...
and that is like you say "make not-being-a-pirate attractive"...........by killing the b*st*rds. then they will all know that if you want to be a pirate you end up very dead.
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Of all the things I've lost in my life, the thing I miss the most is.....my mind
Why we do not just block the pirate ports so they cannot get their hostages and ships to port I don't know - if Somlia is that lawless they are hardly going to get a lot of diplomatic complaints and its about time they used more that kid glove force against them
Because they can operate small boats out of just about any piece of 1500km of coastline. Blockading ports wouldm't make the slightest bit of difference.
Before long there be pirates all over the world if this isn’t brought to a stop .
My plan if ever captured by Somali Pirates is to strike a deal............I will sail 'em to the UK to claim assylum / benefits - in exchange for the Youtube rights of when the Border Agency MIB attempt a boarding
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
Why we do not just block the pirate ports so they cannot get their hostages and ships to port I don't know - if Somlia is that lawless they are hardly going to get a lot of diplomatic complaints and its about time they used more that kid glove force against them
Well, for a start they have roughly 3,000km of coastline. How many ship do you think it would take to blockade that lot effectively? How do you think innocent Somalis would feel about it? How do you think the rest of Africa and the Arab world would feel about it?
PLEASE.. wake up and smell the coffee... this is an organised crime ring cashing in on easy pickings, it's got nothing to do with rebuilding somalia, but you are very right on one point...
and that is like you say "make not-being-a-pirate attractive"...........by killing the b*st*rds. then they will all know that if you want to be a pirate you end up very dead.
Piracy and kidnapping do not, in civilised countries, carry the death penalty. And no, we can't make an exception if the pirates and kidnappers are black.
It would be wonderful and oh so simple to pop a cap in their asses (technical term used by all under 21s I believe) at every given Opportunity. I'd have my name down to help for messing with my future plans to sail aound the world.
However the sneaky little scum bags have hostages but as yet have never wasted anyone. Which is why the authorities, being the un or nato or something similar (not the British Navy) are pussy footing about. Personally if I were sitting where that English couple are right now I'd be quite glad of that fact and even more so when the ransom doesn't get paid.
There's also several commercial ships and their crews sitting off the Somalia coast which were hijacked months and even years ago. Another cause for concern for the powers that be. The shipping companies could though take more responsibility and employ armed guards on vunerable ships. This would though reduce their ability to make huge claims for cargo losses (even on an empty ship) or for the whole ship for that matter. Some ship owners would gladly she one of their vessels sitting off Somalia. Of course if they do make commercial ships less pirateable private yachts are going to look even more attractive.
If the ships had their own guards though the authorities could then concentrate on protecting private yachts.
Piracy and kidnapping do not, in civilised countries, carry the death penalty. And no, we can't make an exception if the pirates and kidnappers are black.
I take offence at your assumption that I am racist; It makes no difference what race, colour or creed a pirate is, it is still an offence by who ever commits it.
It is also irrelevant what race, colour or creed the victims are, what the Somalia’s are doing is abominable and has to be stopped in what ever way is effective to ensure that the likes of the Chandler’s and the large commercial operators are safe to go about their travels without having to go through this horrific experience.
Might I suggest that as you seem so pro-Somali and support what they are doing then you offer yourself and you’re family up as exchange hostages for the Chandler’s …are you going to? Let us all know how you get on!
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Of all the things I've lost in my life, the thing I miss the most is.....my mind
70 years ago we didn’t have the technology we have to day the bottom line is there nothing in it for the US,UK government otherwise it wouldn’t be going on , I bet if it was a load of afghan smuggled arms or drugs they soon put a stop to it . Before long there be pirates all over the world if this isn’t brought to a stop .
You can pretty much guarantee that a shoot out with the pirates would not stop the activity and would almost certainly ratchet up the level of any response from them. So far no one has been killed but that could change quickly and result in needless slaughter.
Orbister is right, the long term solution is to sort out Somalia, but that is going to take some time. Meanwhile, I would suggest that the way forward is to make it tough for the pirates to take ships and that would mean convoys with armed escorts and no lone yachts.
OK that's another restriction and we go cruising to get away from restrictions, however I think it is the only realistic solution for the time being.
I think that the economics of shipping probably have quite a significant effect here, where ship owners are always looking for ways to cut costs, especially manning costs.
I visited a container ship in the harbour here today - 17,000 tonnes deadweight, and only 16 crew, including the 4 engine room staff (2 engineers and 2 oilers).
The Emma Maersk is one of the largest container ships in the world (she can carry 12,000 20' TEU containers), and has (I think) only a few more crew than the one I saw today.
Emma would have size and speed on her side as a deterrent to pirates - have you seen the freeboard on these huge ships?
The 'little' (relatively) ship I visited has 'low' freeboard (compared to Emma) - it would be relatively easy for a gang of pirates to sling their grappling hooks over the rails on a dark night - especially as they know that the odds of anybody seeing them are very low, as the ship manning levels are often barely above the minimum required by the Safe Manning Document.
And as for a little (relatively) loaded tanker, proceeding at a relatively sedate speed - they could almost step on board from a 'fishing boat'. Easy pickings. Especially as they know that the cargo is worth millions of US$.
By way of contrast, a typical general cargo ship of 10,000 tonnes deadweight in the 50's might have had well over 60 crew on board - my Dad was on one of these vessels going through the South China Seas (or maybe Malacca Straits) and he told me about how they had fire teams on constant watch on deck with fire hoses ready when passing through pirate infested waters. Modern day ships just do not have the man power to do this, and it would be unreasonable to expect the operating crew to do this in addition to their normal jobs on the ship.
Maybe the vessels' P & I Clubs will now start insisting on additional armed guards (working shifts around the clock?) being carried on board ships running the gauntlet of the Somali pirates - but this then leads to further possible complications re lifeboat and liferaft capacity being exceeded..... 3 men per shift would not be unreasonable (port, starboard and stern?), and if they do 4 hours on, 8 off then that is another 9 crew members on the list. They would still need 6 extra crew if they just did 'only' 6 hours on and 6 off at night.
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Isn’t just amazing how the British and US government can invade other country in the name of human right , patrol the seas and ocean of the world to stop drug trafficking , intimidate lawful people from cruising in the name of border control , but can’t patrol and stop a bunch of thieving kidnapping thugs in a small sea area compared with the world ocean , could it be because there isn’t any oil or other commentary that is of any valve to them ? ?
Spot on. I honestly believe that this could be stopped very quickly by combined international forces, but as you say, whats in it for us (western economies). And on a seperate point, the only racism I see here is the assumption that a white western couple in a small yacht are fair game. Let's hope the Chandlers regain their liberty soon.
I'm surprised all of you see this as a big problem. Sure the Pirates off Somalia are the most active in the world. But seriously, how many people have they got hostage at the moment? I'd bet it's a pretty low number all in all considering the amount of shipping off the coast. I wonder how many people are held hostage in Iraq, or Afghanistan at the moment.
The reason the Somalis are so successful is because they are humane about what they do. Sure they hold hostages, but those they take are well treated and well fed and once the money has been payed they go free. They are not spilling blood so there is no incentive for western governments to go blowing them out of the water, especially as the ransoms are met by private companies paying out of their own insurance.
The only way to really stop it is with a massive naval presence. Britain hasn't had a navy big enough for that sort of task since the 1940's which basically means no one, not even the yanks, have the resources now.
Basically all things considered the piracy problem is an inconvenience and until people start getting killed by the Somalis then any real action taken against them will be slow in coming.
I'm surprised all of you see this as a big problem. Sure the Pirates off Somalia are the most active in the world. But seriously, how many people have they got hostage at the moment? I'd bet it's a pretty low number all in all considering the amount of shipping off the coast. I wonder how many people are held hostage in Iraq, or Afghanistan at the moment.
The reason the Somalis are so successful is because they are humane about what they do. Sure they hold hostages, but those they take are well treated and well fed and once the money has been payed they go free. They are not spilling blood so there is no incentive for western governments to go blowing them out of the water, especially as the ransoms are met by private companies paying out of their own insurance.
The only way to really stop it is with a massive naval presence. Britain hasn't had a navy big enough for that sort of task since the 1940's which basically means no one, not even the yanks, have the resources now.
Basically all things considered the piracy problem is an inconvenience and until people start getting killed by the Somalis then any real action taken against them will be slow in coming.
Excuse me for being stupid but what exactly is humane about kidnapping. Perhaps being boarded by the UKBA or having to report your movements to eborders could be considered an inconvenience. But being kidnapped at gunpoint, being held against you're will, and in a moment losing everything you've worked for and dreamed of.....????. There is nothing humane about one human being abusing another.
The pirates appear to have now cottoned on that perhaps a ransom demand of millions for the Chandlers is a bit unrealistic - according to this report from the IBI News, they would now like to 'swop' the Chandlers for some of their comrades who were recently captured :- http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsd...40ibinews.html
That's it! Drug the captured pirates. Once asleep insert epirbs up them (big ones). Then release them in exchange for the Chandlers. Falmouth coast guard will then be able to tell yachtsman where the pirates are. Job done. Just don't fall in with an Epirb in your pocket.
The only way to really stop it is with a massive naval presence.
Why spend the money trying to force people who have virtually no other way of making a living from doing what they're doing. Better off helping Somalia rebuild, including having its own navy and coastguard so that its territorial waters are its own and fishermen can fish.
Seems the ransom is no down to £100k, better than £4m.
As far as lone yachts go, most tend to travel these waters in small convoys. The Chandlers were very unlucky that the pirates had just 'lost' a container ship they had been chasing - the Chandlers were in the wrong place at the wrong time. South of the pirate normal operating area.
2000+ yachts a year pass up and down the Red Sea through these waters and 1 or 2 get captured, its still safer than walking around many major cities in the UK or elsewhere. Not nice to get caught but...........
We still plan to head south this way with our kids, as its still safer than the Caribbean these days with muggings ashore and armed robbery aboard yachts at anchor, etc.
I take offence at your assumption that I am racist; It makes no difference what race, colour or creed a pirate is, it is still an offence by who ever commits it.
But it doesn't carry the death penalty, and we cannot - any more - swan round the world executing people who annoy us, no matter how great the provocation.
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Might I suggest that as you seem so pro-Somali and support what they are doing then you offer yourself and you’re family up as exchange hostages for the Chandler’s …are you going to? Let us all know how you get on!
I find it interesting that you chose to write "pro-Somali" and not "pro-pirate" in that little bit of Daily Mailism. Not all Somalis are pirates, you know, and there is a word for people who assume otherwise.
Might I suggest that as you seem so pro-Somali and support what they are doing then you offer yourself and you’re family up as exchange hostages for the Chandler’s …are you going to? Let us all know how you get on!
I'll do that if you take you and your family and do an exchange with that of a Somali fisherman. Be sure to let us know how you get on too!
The pirates skiffs seem to have a fairly identifiable form, it would be harsh, but effective to simply scoot down the coast in helicopters and destroy anything resembling one.
It'd take out a lot of fishing boats, true, but traditionally styled fishing boats would be left alone, since they're probably not suitable for attacking a ship - doubt they'd have the speed, they need to do 15+ knots don't forget.
The pirates skiffs seem to have a fairly identifiable form, it would be harsh, but effective to simply scoot down the coast in helicopters and destroy anything resembling one.
It'd take out a lot of fishing boats, true, but traditionally styled fishing boats would be left alone, since they're probably not suitable for attacking a ship - doubt they'd have the speed, they need to do 15+ knots don't forget.
The pirates skiffs seem to have a fairly identifiable form, it would be harsh, but effective to simply scoot down the coast in helicopters and destroy anything resembling one.
It'd take out a lot of fishing boats, true, but traditionally styled fishing boats would be left alone, since they're probably not suitable for attacking a ship - doubt they'd have the speed, they need to do 15+ knots don't forget.
Face facts, the world has changed since the 18th century; Britain is no longer a superpower and responding to guerrilla tactics either ashore or afloat through brute force simply does not work. You don't need to be moving at all to pump several RPG rounds into the wheelhouse of a passing ship. Remember these guys have little or nothing at all to loose and a lot to gain. All you will do ( apart from completely trashing international law ) is escalate the whole scenario to a higher level.
Remember its all about the money these days. Sure, you'd like our Navy to be out there spending billions to protect perhaps 50 UK flagged vessels off on sailing jollies. I'm not sure how the rest of the 70 million people in this country would respond to that budget, certainly I wouldn't be keen! Actually it is probably easier, safer and cheaper in the long run to draw out negotiations with the pirates and eventually settle for some small amount to procure the release of the occasional hostage. Certainly £100 000 to release the current captives pales into insignificance in comparison to running a fleet of fast patrol vessels, helicopters, aircraft and all the associated support logistics. Actually paying money via a cash drop to a bunch of pirates is probably more effective at getting money 'to the coalface' than subsidising some corrupt government.
A few low key, low cost commando style raids or high seas captures might help. Occasionally capturing one or two of the pirate ringleaders and 'keeping them in reserve' to trade for hostages seems a good plan.
Task force 150 and the entry in wikipedia on siezed ships makes interesting reading ( 2 UK vessels in the past 3 years )
"You don't need to be moving at all to pump several RPG rounds into the wheelhouse of a passing ship."
You do have to get in the path of it though which requires movement.
Just to be clear, I mean destroying the boats while they are ashore not faffing around finding them in the ocean and not specifically trying to kill anyone. I don't think that's actually been suggested above.
Seems the ransom is no down to £100k, better than £4m.
As far as lone yachts go, most tend to travel these waters in small convoys. The Chandlers were very unlucky that the pirates had just 'lost' a container ship they had been chasing - the Chandlers were in the wrong place at the wrong time. South of the pirate normal operating area.
2000+ yachts a year pass up and down the Red Sea through these waters and 1 or 2 get captured, its still safer than walking around many major cities in the UK or elsewhere. Not nice to get caught but...........
We still plan to head south this way with our kids, as its still safer than the Caribbean these days with muggings ashore and armed robbery aboard yachts at anchor, etc.
If you come out of it (capture etc) ok I can see future benefits.
Book. Serialisation in News of the World. After dinner speaking etc. Clifford whasit could help here.
If you come out of it (capture etc) ok I can see future benefits.
Book. Serialisation in News of the World. After dinner speaking etc. Clifford whasit could help here.
How in fact do you contact these pirates ?
Lets see. Arrange a 'pirate siezure' and subsequent payoff by government or insurers to pirates. Claim insurance on boat ( which was stripped of anything useful beforehand of course ), get into after dinner speaking or piracy consulting.
Wonder how long it will be before someone is found to have declared a manifest of some super valuable cargo to their insurers, got pirated, claimed and then find that the boat was in ballast or something.
Lets see. Arrange a 'pirate siezure' and subsequent payoff by government or insurers to pirates. Claim insurance on boat ( which was stripped of anything useful beforehand of course ), get into after dinner speaking or piracy consulting.
Wonder how long it will be before someone is found to have declared a manifest of some super valuable cargo to their insurers, got pirated, claimed and then find that the boat was in ballast or something.
Just my cynical side coming out again
It goes on all the time in commerical shipping. An old friend of mine worked for a big city shipping company some years ago and claimed; A. They knew which ships wouldn't make it to destination port before they had even departed. Or B which ones weren't carring the cargo they were registered as carrying. All a big insurance fiddle. They don't give a toss about the crews. If a few go down it adds credence to the story. Obviously one mustn't generalise. There must be a few good shipping co's out there.
No one is suggesting that every sq mile should be patrol we all know if not possible but Somali coast line is 1800 miles long and only a small part of the coast line is available to these thugs come kidnappers lets not make this some keen of romantic film set by calling them Pirates .and at the same time they could help to put a end to illegal fishing going on in Somali waters and help the Somali people at the same time
I’m not for one moment suggesting they we should go in there guns blazing let us not forget there are two innocent people in the middle of all this plus crews from other shipping line and what the British Gov should be doing now is trying to get them out rather then sounding like African parrots with comments like “ the British Government
Will not make any substantive concessions to hostage-takers, and that includes the payment of ransom" well that’s all well and good for then sitting in there warm offices in white hall working out what expenses they can claim for next . And what stupid laws they can come up with next . … E Border … that a joke on it own . But let not go there here .
As for the comment “ the hostage are well treated and well fed and no one as been harmed yet “are there now ? I don’t think the Chandler or the other hostage would quite agree with you there .and have you forgoton about the French skipper ,
So I understand there now talk of them being passed on to some other group . And it only a matter of time before someone will get hurt .
I think you'll find that there's a word for sinking ships and killing their crews just for being in a particular area of international waters. Piracy. And murder. Two words.
And look how successful the navies of the world have been at ending drug smuggling, eh?
The best way to stop the piracy happening is to make not-being-a-pirate attractive. Sure, that may include having some ships which can fight back, but supporting the rebuilding of Somalia and ending the illegal fishing and dumping in Somali waters would probably be much more effective.
Hey Folks - a Guardian reader!
The theory seems to be that if anyone breaks the law in a 3rd world country we should be happy to have our taxes increased and our wealth given away to persuade them not to do so. Or more efficiently, just invite them here to live off social services.
The best way to stop piracy is the way we did it before - string them up. On the spot.
No one is saying what the Pirates, sorry theiving, hijacking scum are doing is right. What is at question is the method of stopping it. Drawn and quartering, no matter how attractive is just not going to happen. Bombing the ****e out of their coastline is not going to happen. Invasion is not going to happen. And as for the West not getting involved wasn't that were the USA went in, cocked it up and then had to flee with their tails between their legs? Oh and just incase you don't believe me a film was made about it called Black Hawk Down. This is a Country run by Warlords. Life is cheap, like a lot of Countries in the world. Death is right there all the time be it infant mortality, war, gangs or disease. Which might have something to do with why half the world wants to come here. A country in which for them life is easy and not because it's handed to them on a plate but because from where they've come from this is Nivarna, a walk in the park. I'm sick of hearing people harping on about how **** it is here in the UK because of all these immigrants. If they didn't come who would harvest the fruit, veg and salad? The growers of which have to let tonnes rot on the plants because there isn't enough immigrant workers allowed in to pick it. While what you call English kids are standing around drinking cans of Tenants Super at 10am. Waiting for their dole.
Read something that's going to inform you about what's actually going on, rather than a selfserving rag designed to fill you full of paronia and hate.
Lots of love Me
Last edited by Graememcmurhcie; 03-11-09 at 20:21.
The theory seems to be that if anyone breaks the law in a 3rd world country we should be happy to have our taxes increased and our wealth given away to persuade them not to do so. Or more efficiently, just invite them here to live off social services.
Oh, a Mail reader. I'd better keep it simple then.
I'll tell you who the real freeloaders are in this situation - the foreign fishing fleets that have stripped Somalia's waters of upward of $300 million worth of fish and those that have dumped toxic waste off the Somali coast to avoid processing costs. That's who should be paying for a decent solution to this situation and allowing Somalis to gain a legitimate livelihood.
In reality you are right - nothing much is going to be done about the piracy not least because the days when we had the self belief to be effective in such matters are long behind us. So we will wring our hands and complain. But one thing is for sure - "rebuilding Somalia" is never going to be more attractive to the pirates than the largely risk free returns of millions per ship from piracy. Who wants to farm fields for a dollar a day when they can wave an RPG for $1000 per day?
You're making wrong assumptions about me. As I see it, social services and immigration have little to do with foreign labour and picking vegetables. Personally, I'm all for more foreign workers in the UK when they have jobs to fill. Keeps labour rates competitive and as the Poles demonstrated, the employer tends to get more work for his money.No jobs - they can go home.
But immigration is a different thing. Immigrants need to buy into being British, assimilate, adopt the culture such as it is.
As an aside I'm reminded of the Icelanders and the Cod War in all this. They were desperate enough to enforce no go zones to foreign vessels and to damage trawl nets in the process, so lord knows what pressure a Somali ex-fisherman trying to feed his family is under.
Just one other thing if you really lived in a hell hole of a place, where the grimreaper could pop in from next door on his way further down the street to collect a few of your friends. Would you think I'll just stay here and await my turn? Or would you try and get you and your family to a better place? Not a hard one is it.
Obviously if us poor people in the West who haven't got a penny to scatch our asses with because of the banking fiasco (no-one was complaining when they where making a mint) outrageous taxes (18% cap gains whoop de doop) a **** goverment ( it was much better under the torries wasn't it? Why did Labour get in again?) Could help to make life better in their own countries maybe they wouldn't want to come here. Unless they like the weather.
But immigration is a different thing. Immigrants need to buy into being British, assimilate, adopt the culture such as it is.[/QUOTE]
Sadly I think that option was destroyed years ago. The sort of place most of the immigrants end up is not condusive to intergration. I fear for the future of the uk as much as you. I have kids, who will one day have kids. One can only try to be open minded. I admit as I get older it gets harder.
Sadly I think that option was destroyed years ago. The sort of place most of the immigrants end up is not condusive to intergration. I fear for the future of the uk as much as you. I have kids, who will one day have kids. One can only try to be open minded. I admit as I get older it gets harder.
Sorry I digress. God I'm depressed now.
We are digressing, but as someone who has lived in inner city Birmingham and more latterly Bradford, I think it's far too easy to imagine that the inner cities there are not integrated in some way. Sure, most of the residents aren't sailing at weekends or on the golf course, but most get on with their lives as hardworking and peaceful people. And the assimilation of culture does happen, but you possibly just don't see it because it's in ways you wouldn't expect. The Pakistani butchers of Bradford will soon be advertising halal turkeys in time for Xmas, and one (professed Muslim!) friend of mine will probably go out and get more hammered at weekends than he normally does as we get into the holiday season.
What's the butchers name? We used to supply 300 Hallal slaughtered sheep everyday to Bradford, Illford and Newcastle. Happy days (not for the sheep obviously). And what you say is true.
Right, so what are we going to do about these Bushwhackers off Somalia then?
Punjab Halal Butchers, Oak Lane. They'll have the turkey ads up by now. I must take a pic next time I'm over. Kind of gives the lie to this 'they're banning christmas' nonsense that comes round every year
Right, so what are we going to do about these Bushwhackers off Somalia then?
Oh, yeah, the pirates
What's needed? International coalition assistance to create a Somali navy and coastguard and suitable ports with naval help in the meantime to secure their waters against foreign trawlers and waste dumpers, plus some assistance to help rebuild the Somali fishing industry.
Who should pay? The owners/government of any fishing or waste dumping vessel who ever played a part in either of those activities off the Somali coast.
So why patrol just Somalia? Sure its the hotspot at the moment but over the last couple of years the Carribbean and Argentina have been bad for small yachts as well as the African west coast.
Everytime I go up the Medina I get robbed. Cowes Yacht Haven £26 for a 30 foot yacht end of Oct. I think they were charging me more because I was rafted next to an RM1050 (wolf whistle effect).
That maps a bit scary. A mate of mine sailed through the Red sea a few years back and said it was bad there but the Caribean was worse and the yachts used to travelling in groups for safety. Not my idea of freedom. Might have to take up flying, can't be much more expensive after all.
The English one though come on I'd be surprised if there hadn't been one up there?
Last edited by Graememcmurhcie; 04-11-09 at 18:08.
Oh, a Mail reader. I'd better keep it simple then.
I'll tell you who the real freeloaders are in this situation - the foreign fishing fleets that have stripped Somalia's waters of upward of $300 million worth of fish and those that have dumped toxic waste off the Somali coast to avoid processing costs. That's who should be paying for a decent solution to this situation and allowing Somalis to gain a legitimate livelihood.
Ahh an Independent reader! no chance of changing a closed mind. but for the rest of you:-
Anyway Somali pirates are pirates because thats what pays them the most dosh, they know that in the end the west will payup, the is no such thing as a legitimate livelihood in that area DOING ANYTHING will be harder than robbery and piracy, I take it that legitimate includes paying some taxes, GET A LIFE! it wont happen.
Fish dont belong to Somalia so whats that all about? - the pirates are not even equipped for fishing AND since when did territorial waters extend 1000KM offshore? an open skiff 1000Km offshore? oh right he was out for long weekend then with a ladder, grapnel, RPG and AK47. . . . with no stores or fuel - perhaps he has a TARDIS to save time. . .
Please GO THERE AND SEE as have I - there is no government there is no way on earth a yob in Somallia could make a living fishing he wouldnt know how to start - threatening a crew with a gun, now your talking, he knows about terrorising people, learned that in one of the many civil wars, it's far easier and far more profitable - IT'S HIS WAY OF LIFE. Changing the current state of affairs in Somalia will take billions of pounds and take a century or two, even then it may not change for the better - just be a bit different, the pirates will have better equipment funded by the UN.
Piracy is Thuggery and there is no excuse for it and the rules of engagement should reflect that, anyone that commits piracy on the high seas should expect to be fired upon with no quarter given. Julius Ceasar had the right idea.
Piracy is Thuggery and there is no excuse for it and the rules of engagement should reflect that, anyone that commits piracy on the high seas should expect to be fired upon with no quarter given. Julius Ceasar had the right idea.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't he pirated by the Hawk or Falcon while in exile from Rome? If I remember right he was told he'd be held for ransome. When told the amount Julius said it wasn't enough and demanded they ask for more. The ransome was duly paid by Mr and Mrs Caeser and upon leaving the pirates he said he would kill everyone of them before dawn. He was by all accounts a bit camp so this obviously cracked them all up. The Pirates had a big knees up, lots of dodgy booze and eventually all passed out ratted. While they'd been revelling in it Julius had sneaked back with a ship load of centurians and slaughtered the lot. Except the leaders. I can't remember how he dispatched them but Iknow it wasn't a nice way to go.
I did a lot of research into Pirates a few years ago. Even got into a special room in Greenwich and handled some very old books. I wanted to make a TV documentary about the reality of being a pirate. Might resurrect it. It was nothing like the Hollywood tripe. It seems they are far more successful to day.
Anyway Somali pirates are pirates because thats what pays them the most dosh, they know that in the end the west will payup, the is no such thing as a legitimate livelihood in that area DOING ANYTHING will be harder than robbery and piracy, I take it that legitimate includes paying some taxes, GET A LIFE! it wont happen.
Yes, that's more or less what we have been saying. Their country is in complete chaos, the economy is non-existent, their fishing stocks have been destroyed ... as you have said. piracy is the easiest way they have to make a living.
Quote:
Fish dont belong to Somalia so whats that all about? - the pirates are not even equipped for fishing AND since when did territorial waters extend 1000KM offshore? an open skiff 1000Km offshore? oh right he was out for long weekend then with a ladder, grapnel, RPG and AK47. . . . with no stores or fuel - perhaps he has a TARDIS to save time. . .
Phew. Let's take that lot in order. First of all, fish. Sure, individual fish don't belong to particular countries, but the concept of national waters and national fishing grounds is well established. Google "Cod war" if you want to see what happened when Iceland started getting serious about this. As for equipment - well of course they don;t have fishing kits with them. They are not fishermen doing a bit of piracy on the side, they are pirates who once were fishermen. And you do know they work from motherships, right?
Quote:
Piracy is Thuggery and there is no excuse for it and the rules of engagement should reflect that, anyone that commits piracy on the high seas should expect to be fired upon with no quarter given. Julius Ceasar had the right idea.
As far as I am concerned, anybody actively trying to take over a vessel by force deserves anything they get. Some of the ideas suggested here - kill 'em all, kill a few at random, kill anyone who looks as if they might be a pirate - are totally unacceptable under international law and any system of ethics. We're the good guys, remember, and there are restrictions on what the Good Guys can do.
Location: gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Posts: 102
Piracy suppression
This piracy was active in the immediate post-WW2 period.
In 1950 I was navigating officer of a frigate given the task of suppressing or inhibiting both piracy and slavery (which the somalis are also good at). Incidentally our crew contained 16 locally entered Somali seamen.
Of course the scale was less dramatic than now. It was mostly confined to 50 miles off-shore and the boats used were slower (but our own max speed was only 17 knots) but the problem was much the same.
In a wardroom conference it was agreed that we could do little as one solitary ship patrolling the coast between Cape Gardafui and the Kenyan border. The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy. (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length.
This solved the problem, but do remember that the Royal Navy at that time had considerable discretion. We were not controlled by a Minister and his bum-boys and only reported the results, not the methods used. At that time we had an effective navy.
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised.
Please also note that at that period, with much of the interior farming etc in the hands of white settlers, there was no famine or any other shortages. Those communities that remained peaceful enjoyed some small prosperity: their small-scale epidemics were sorted out. The suppresssion of slavery was popular, and there was a semblance of justice.
I say semblance; that is another story.
The Empire was by no means all bad.
The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy ... (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length. ...
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised..
Hardly surprising, is it, since you were threatening their own countrymen with draconian and extrajudicial group punishment? With tales like you tell it's easy to see why so much of Africa detests us.
The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy. (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length.
This solved the problem, but do remember that the Royal Navy at that time had considerable discretion. We were not controlled by a Minister and his bum-boys and only reported the results, not the methods used. At that time we had an effective navy.
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised.
Please also note that at that period, with much of the interior farming etc in the hands of white settlers, there was no famine or any other shortages. Those communities that remained peaceful enjoyed some small prosperity: their small-scale epidemics were sorted out. The suppresssion of slavery was popular, and there was a semblance of justice.
I say semblance; that is another story.
The Empire was by no means all bad.
White supremacy, arbitrary military 'justice', economic exploitation, a hierarchy of 'races', homophobia. Nice eye opener there, Binch. No wonder the Nazis envied our empire.
Yes, that's more or less what we have been saying. The country is in complete chaos, the economy is non-existent, their fishing stocks have been destroyed ... as you have said. piracy is the easiest way they have to make a living.
Why spend the money trying to force people who have virtually no other way of making a living from doing what they're doing. Better off helping Somalia rebuild, including having its own navy and coastguard so that its territorial waters are its own and fishermen can fish.
Sorry, but if you have been to Somalia (I have) you will realise that this sort of idea is just completely unrealistic!
Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?
As a corollary,let me pose a question: after all the blocking of bank accounts held by suspected terrorist groups and the changes in international banking practice whereby even Lichtenstein and the Swiss have had to divulge details of bank accounts,WHY haven't their accounts been blocked?
Thread drift, I know, but this earns the "Freestyle Gold Thread Award". It has something to do with sailing, it is interesting and controversial, its protagonists' forthright comments are nonetheless polite, its contributors have shown intelligence unsullied by inebriety, but above all it is funny.
Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?
As a corollary,let me pose a question: after all the blocking of bank accounts held by suspected terrorist groups and the changes in international banking practice whereby even Lichtenstein and the Swiss have had to divulge details of bank accounts,WHY haven't their accounts been blocked?
Could the answer be because they were paid in cash. ??? $$$ cash at that and still no doubt they hold cash. Even poor Somalis are not stupid enough to put money into todays banking system.
Could the answer be because they were paid in cash. ??? $$$ cash at that and still no doubt they hold cash. Even poor Somalis are not stupid enough to put money into todays banking system.
Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!
Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!
Could well be in some secret CIA bank account owned/run by a previous American Defense Secretary. Cant quite remember his name. The chap that runs the company supplying arms, oil refinement, food, private security services, weapons, banking services, arms & ammunition to anyone who can afford it & will swear in all honesty to support the American way of life.
Without taking the pi**
Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!
I bet they are holding it as cash. And if they don't then they hold it as watches, fancy cars, guns and women. Any investing won't be with a bank, but in a fast boat, an RPG and six men who want to be rich.
I bet they are holding it as cash. And if they don't then they hold it as watches, fancy cars, guns and women. Any investing won't be with a bank, but in a fast boat, an RPG and six men who want to be rich.
Dont anyone read the news ??? what else would they do with large wadges of wanga ??
Buy expensive boats, cars, champers, gold, legit co's, etc etc Exactly what they have done.
Nod and a Wink money laundering without a trace.
Dont anyone read the news ??? what else would they do with large wadges of wanga ??
Buy expensive boats, cars, champers, gold, legit co's, etc etc Exactly what they have done.
Nod and a Wink money laundering without a trace.
Honestly, what would these poor misguided hard-done by Somali fishermen know of such things?
"We used to be among the top navies in Africa. We had ships that carried deadly missiles and we had 10 battalions covering the whole coast," said Mr Omar."
"The massive factory trawlers which used to drain their fish stocks have been scared away and that means there is a huge bounty for local fishermen as well as helping to restore the health of the marine eco-system."
According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Somali doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by Somali standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Russian Mafia, the mafia and any other bent organisation (USA). The exchange rate is probably almost as bad as the £ to Euro.
(Actually the Mafia are being prosecuted for paying someone to scuttle three ships that are full of toxic waste).
The fishing thing is an excuse used by the Somalis. The fishermen of Seahouses in Northumberland have really missed an opportunity.
Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?
You're quite right - it has evolved way beyond its origins. From what I read, though, most of the blokes whizzing around with RPGs are relatively poorly paid employees of the well financed brains behind the schemes. I am 100% in favour of going after the brains, and that should certainly include financially. However we should also if possible work towards giving the employees something else to do.
Some parallels with Afghanistan and Columbia where in both cases the west have been trying physical eradication of the only really profitable cash crops - opium and coca respectively. It just doesn't work unless you/we make sure that there is an alternative way for the farmers to make money.
According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Isle of wighter doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by isle of Wight standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho, the Harbour Master. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Folly Mafia, the Yarmouth mafia and any other dodgy organisation (RYA).
There's got be a link.
Last edited by Graememcmurhcie; 05-11-09 at 09:56.
According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Isle of wighter doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by isle of Wight standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho, the Harbour Master. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Folly Mafia, the Yarmouth mafia and any other dodgy organisation (RYA).
Location: gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Posts: 102
Somaliland
I thought that my posting about 1950 would flush out the woolly pink softies.
Unless you have had to immerse yourself for a longish period in the Africa of 60 years ago, you can have no idea what it is like trying to bring people who are not much past stone age into the modern world.
How do YOU, Mr bleeding heart, cope with cannibalism? We had to. Evidently, you would rather close your eyes to that bit of the past.
To people whose reasoning powers have not got much past black and white, solutions and civic discipline have to be that simple to be understood.
No doubt Africa in general has made advances in the last 60 years, but their rate of change is slower than Europe and so they fall further behind.
One aspect of the anti-piracy patrol's effectiveness lies in not having a secure base in the middle of the area. We had Mogadiscio, and it is there the slavers and pirates we captured were put on trial.
Oh and by the way, if we were nasty to the slavers (whose methods included throwing their slaves overboard to the sharks in an attempt to evade justice--- if you didn't catch them with slaves on board they could only be charged with murder or manslaughter which are not international crimes) would that nastiness be also evidence of the wickedness of our administration?
I thought that my posting about 1950 would flush out the woolly pink softies.
Unless you have had to immerse yourself for a longish period in the Africa of 60 years ago, you can have no idea what it is like trying to bring people who are not much past stone age into the modern world.
How do YOU, Mr bleeding heart, cope with cannibalism? We had to. Evidently, you would rather close your eyes to that bit of the past.
To people whose reasoning powers have not got much past black and white, solutions and civic discipline have to be that simple to be understood.
No doubt Africa in general has made advances in the last 60 years, but their rate of change is slower than Europe and so they fall further behind.
One aspect of the anti-piracy patrol's effectiveness lies in not having a secure base in the middle of the area. We had Mogadiscio, and it is there the slavers and pirates we captured were put on trial.
Oh and by the way, if we were nasty to the slavers (whose methods included throwing their slaves overboard to the sharks in an attempt to evade justice--- if you didn't catch them with slaves on board they could only be charged with murder or manslaughter which are not international crimes) would that nastiness be also evidence of the wickedness of our administration?
I like your posts. They're interesing and amusing. But, I'm neither woolly, pink, nor soft. I'm not a pacifist either, if you know what I mean. I just don't labour under the illusion that my role in life is to somehow drag people out of the stone age whether they like it or not as part of some civilising mission imposed on the white man. Luckily noone else does nowadays - or at least not in the blatantly imperial form you describe. Your experience and worldview is interesting and enlightening, but it belongs in a different time and luckily it's as an exhibit in the museum of history that it best resides now. Have you written at length of your experiences, or been interviewed on them? You really ought to if you haven't. As I say, it's a fascinating experience you have.
Were you at Rorkes Drift?
I've never tried cannibalism but faced with that or a bowl of Whelks. Well lets just say leg or breast.
My learned friend is right you do have a wealth of history there and it should be known. As we know there's at lot to learn from what happend in the past. Not making the same mistakes again seems to be one of the things.
Times ain't what they used to be. The media and those liberty people are watching all the time for the military in the West to put a foot out of the humanitarian line. I personally believe that conflicts go on far longer and cost many more lives in the long run because of our so called humanitarianism. But that's the way things are now.
[QUOTE=Algol;2300219]I like your posts. They're interesing and amusing. But, I'm neither woolly, pink, nor soft. I'm not a pacifist either, if you know what I mean. I just don't labour under the illusion that my role in life is to somehow drag people out of the stone age whether they like it or not as part of some civilising mission imposed on the white man.
I thought that my posting about 1950 would flush out the woolly pink softies.
Unless you have had to immerse yourself for a longish period in the Africa of 60 years ago, you can have no idea what it is like trying to bring people who are not much past stone age into the modern world.
How do YOU, Mr bleeding heart, cope with cannibalism? We had to.
Details, please.
Of course the poor heathen savages might equally ask how we would cope with a bunch of racist thugs coming into our towns and demanding prisoners for arbitrary punishment on pain of indiscriminate destruction.
"I just don't labour under the illusion that my role in life is to somehow drag people out of the stone age whether they like it or not as part of some civilising mission imposed on the white man."
Ahem...
"What's needed? International coalition assistance to create a Somali navy and coastguard and suitable ports with naval help in the meantime to secure their waters against foreign trawlers and waste dumpers, plus some assistance to help rebuild the Somali fishing industry."
Or do we consider those to be stone-age or uncivilised concepts?
I wouldn't want to impose civilisation on them either though. I reckon just scoot down the coast in choppers and whack any boat that looks like a pirate might use it. It'd be done in a week, leaving only a lighter patrol to keep the boat numbers under control.
I reckon just scoot down the coast in choppers and whack any boat that looks like a pirate might use it. It'd be done in a week, leaving only a lighter patrol to keep the boat numbers under control.
Well, you should set it up as a scenario in whatever game it is that gets you hard, cos it ain't gonna happen in real life.
I wouldn't want to impose civilisation on them either though. I reckon just scoot down the coast in choppers and whack any boat that looks like a pirate might use it. It'd be done in a week, leaving only a lighter patrol to keep the boat numbers under control.[/QUOTE]
Well, this thread has certainly kept me entertained. It seems to be regularly contributed to by numerous pompous, self-righteous, self-important armchair politicians, all trying to outdo each other with ridiculous displays of self indulgent clap trap. Take a look back through the thread...if you cant see any..its probably you!
I wonder how the Chandlers are doing?..I wonder if they are worrying about what newspapers we all read, or do you think they just want to get safely home?....and dont really give a toss about how its done......I dont know, maybe I am missing something.
light blue touch (touchy) paper and stand well back!
Well, this thread has certainly kept me entertained. It seems to be regularly contributed to by numerous pompous, self-righteous, self-important armchair politicians, all trying to outdo each other with ridiculous displays of self indulgent clap trap.
Welcome to the thread! You're fitting in well already
Well, you should set it up as a scenario in whatever game it is that gets you hard, cos it ain't gonna happen in real life.
Ditto your touchy feely build a ports, navies and a fishing industry that pays better than piracy approach.
Sounds more like sim-city than the real world. At least with my plan the choppers are already down there and people have already sunk a few boats from helicopters, I'm merely talking about scale.
Whereas you want to shift in a massive construction effort, training similar to what we're failing to do in Afghanistan and a security operation that makes the Afghan one look half hearted and you think that shipping companies will pay for it.
When you look at it like that which is less likely? The one that has actually been done albeit on a small scale and where the equipment is already there or the one that only exists in some limp wristed liberal wonderland?
They're both about as likely, TBH. It just depends what kind of world you want to live in really - one where we turn a blind eye while fishing companies and the mafia make millions by killing fishing grounds and dumping toxic waste or one where we blow away some people who had the nerve to get out and feed their families when all other options had disappeared.
They're both about as likely, TBH. It just depends what kind of world you want to live in really - one where we turn a blind eye while fishing companies and the mafia make millions by killing fishing grounds and dumping toxic waste or one where we blow away some people who had the nerve to get out and feed their families when all other options had disappeared.
They also provide their familys with nice big new 4x4s to get them to the shops i suppose.
How do YOU, Mr bleeding heart, cope with cannibalism?
I think the answer nowadays is: give 'em a passport. and then be surprised when someone's kid ends up in the cooking pot. If the Social Worker ain't also at the meal........
__________________
Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
Calm down!
I have no desire to go to Somalia or anywhere close to it ,just pointing out to you that these so called pirates go a bit further than just feeding their familys,
They seem to live in big houses and drive the latest 4x4s,if the news coverage is anything to go by.
Ok they treat their hostages well,but how long will that last?
I've got an idea. Why don't we just seal off the Somali boarders. Stop all aid and any other imports and any exports going in and out of the country. Then, have a massive blockade to seal off their international waters, again not letting anything in or out.
Then we leave 'em alone for as long as it takes for them to sort themselves out.
Just has a skim down the thread. All very amusing and, how to put this politely, a little naive.
But I do know where large amounts of ransom money goes and yes it does go into the banking system. The Kenya-Somalia border is very porous. And I imagine its other borders are worse. There is a part of E. Nairobi known as little Mogadishu which is totally Somali dominated. It is incidentally totally safe, unlike the rest of the city. There are tales from people I trust of assorted Somali religious leaders walking into banks at regular intervals carrying suitcases full of cash. There are no money laundering laws here (how could there be? But that's another story) and the banks take the money without batting an eyelid (all are members of the big international banking groups). It appears that the imams are used as trusted go-betweens to carry huge quantities of cash and put it into the banking system in neighboring countries.
Piracy and kidnapping do not, in civilised countries, carry the death penalty. And no, we can't make an exception if the pirates and kidnappers are black.
Why the f++k not?
Or we could promise to kill the white ones too......that would be racially fair wouldn't it?
In the afternoon of November 2 some 360 nautical miles east of Mombasa, Kenya, pirates attempted to hijack MV Harriette and MV Jo Cedar.
MV Harriette, a U.S. flagged Cargo vessel was attacked by two small skiffs. The pirates opened fire with automatic weapons. Rocket Propelled grenades were also seen by the crew of the Harriette. The pirates tried to get onboard the vessel with a ladder but the master of Harriette made evasive maneuvers and succeeded in keeping the pirates off his ships. Nobody was reported injured on board.
Some hours later, MV Jo Cedar, a Dutch flagged Tanker, reported being under attack in roughly the same position. The vessel was under attack by three fast attack skiffs. The pirates fired their automatic weapons damaging the bridge wing. Rocket Propelled grenades were sighted but not fired. With evasive maneuvers and speed this vessel also escaped the clutches of the pirates. Nobody was reported injured on board.
An EU NAVFOR Maritime Patrol Aircraft based in Seychelles was tasked to investigate the area and EU NAVFOR German warship FGS Karlsruhe was ordered immediately to search and neutralize the pirate attack group.
Send in the Skri Lankian Navy I say. They have the warrior spirit and the right vessels for the job, which is more than can be said for the Royal Navy.
Lots of interesting thoughts and opinions re the pirates, along with many excellent photos on the CargoLaw website at http://www.cargolaw.com/2008nightmar...html#Nov.%2020
One of their most impressive achievements was hijacking the 300,000 tonne deadweight tanker Sirius Star which had a cargo of oil on board worth somewhere around US$ 100 million.
However we should also if possible work towards giving the employees something else to do.
Some parallels with Afghanistan and Columbia where in both cases the west have been trying physical eradication of the only really profitable cash crops - opium and coca respectively. It just doesn't work unless you/we make sure that there is an alternative way for the farmers to make money.
Maybe we should take several hundred young Somalis and train them to be skippers and crew of large tankers etc, then give them the routes that pass their own country? Then at least if Somali pirates were to take their ships, the crew would just be going home! That would then eliminate the problem of hostages from other countries being held and it would simply be a case of aguing with the insurance companies.
Location: gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Posts: 102
Rough Justice
I am happy to recognise Algol and others' views on justice. We do live now in a different age and different cultures obtain.
The question is not whether we, 60 years ago, were right or wrong because we did what our consciences told us would be best overall.
If you want to replace the rather brusque way of doing things 60 years ago, and that is your privilege, then you must find methods that achieve a valid result.
I was discussing the prison population with a governor. The UK prison population in 1949 was approx 15,000. Today it is approx 85,000 and about one third more on parole.
Is there something wrong with our present day "war on crime"?
Let me add something else: Grendon prison re-offence rate is only 2% differentt from the rest of the prisons.
(Grendon takes carefully chosen prisoners and trains them carefully to avoid re-offending.It costs a fortune to run.)
But it doesn't carry the death penalty, and we cannot - any more - swan round the world executing people who annoy us, no matter how great the provocation.
I find it interesting that you chose to write "pro-Somali" and not "pro-pirate" in that little bit of Daily Mailism. Not all Somalis are pirates, you know, and there is a word for people who assume otherwise.
you know fine well that the topic is somali piracy, and do I take that you are going to decline offering yourself up in exchange for the chandlers...hmm thought so..and theres also a word for people like that as well.
you are wrong about piracy not carrying the death penalty, in fact it does!
The Piracy Act 1837 (c.88) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It abolished the death penalty for most offences of piracy, but created a new offence often known as piracy with violence, which is punishable with death. This offence still exists today!
and if for one minute you think that a group of armed men boarding your boat, shoving several guns in your face and threatning to kill you if you dont comply, is not an act of violence, then you realy do need educating in the ways of the world.
__________________
Of all the things I've lost in my life, the thing I miss the most is.....my mind
I was discussing the prison population with a governor. The UK prison population in 1949 was approx 15,000. Today it is approx 85,000 and about one third more on parole.
Fascinating figures. It'd be interesting to see what the crimes they were imprisoned for were in the two time periods, how the social and employment background of those imprisoned compares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by binch
Let me add something else: Grendon prison re-offence rate is only 2% differentt from the rest of the prisons.
(Grendon takes carefully chosen prisoners and trains them carefully to avoid re-offending.It costs a fortune to run.)
The rate is only 2%, or 2% different from the rest? It's ambiguous
Location: gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Algol
Fascinating figures. It'd be interesting to see what the crimes they were imprisoned for were in the two time periods, how the social and employment background of those imprisoned compares.
The rate is only 2%, or 2% different from the rest? It's ambiguous
2% ???
The info was obtained in a conversation. As the re-offence rate at the prison governed by my informant was apparently 83%, I assumed he meant that Grendon, where he had been deputy governor, was 83 - 2 = 81%.
As an actuary (as well as a Master Mariner) I should have known better than to be so vague with numbers. Sorry to confuse. Comes of writing after dinner. Hic!
(5) In section 2 of the [1837 c. 88.] Piracy Act 1837 (punishment of piracy when murder is attempted), for the words “and being convicted thereof shall suffer death” there shall be substituted the words “and being convicted thereof shall be liable to imprisonment for life”.
2% ???
The info was obtained in a conversation. As the re-offence rate at the prison governed by my informant was apparently 83%, I assumed he meant that Grendon, where he had been deputy governor, was 83 - 2 = 81%.
As an actuary (as well as a Master Mariner) I should have known better than to be so vague with numbers. Sorry to confuse. Comes of writing after dinner. Hic!
My take is that those numbers show 2 things a) the right people are in prison and b) we let them out too early.
I am all for providing assistance to Prisoners to stop re-offending, but the primary purpose of prison should be to keep criminals off the streets. Not retribution or even punishment.........respite for society.
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
Could well be in some secret CIA bank account owned/run by a previous American Defense Secretary. Cant quite remember his name. The chap that runs the company supplying arms, oil refinement, food, private security services, weapons, banking services, arms & ammunition to anyone who can afford it & will swear in all honesty to support the American way of life.
Without taking the pi**
I thought that my posting about 1950 would flush out the woolly pink softies.
Unless you have had to immerse yourself for a longish period in the Africa of 60 years ago, you can have no idea what it is like trying to bring people who are not much past stone age into the modern world.
How do YOU, Mr bleeding heart, cope with cannibalism? We had to. Evidently, you would rather close your eyes to that bit of the past.
To people whose reasoning powers have not got much past black and white, solutions and civic discipline have to be that simple to be understood.
No doubt Africa in general has made advances in the last 60 years, but their rate of change is slower than Europe and so they fall further behind.
One aspect of the anti-piracy patrol's effectiveness lies in not having a secure base in the middle of the area. We had Mogadiscio, and it is there the slavers and pirates we captured were put on trial.
Oh and by the way, if we were nasty to the slavers (whose methods included throwing their slaves overboard to the sharks in an attempt to evade justice--- if you didn't catch them with slaves on board they could only be charged with murder or manslaughter which are not international crimes) would that nastiness be also evidence of the wickedness of our administration?
Tell e m how it is/was!
I was in Angola in 76 till 92 on and off, 76 and I was were Callans lot were, his translator worked with me, hair raising stories. It was all camarada when we first went there then it changed as the conditions worsened for the workers ( Ive told the stroy of the white unflagged ship in Luanda with goodies for the bent ministers from SA)
My workers used to talk to me, (I learnd to speak portuguese) in the end they used to say life was better when the Porks were there. Pedro Kanga, learned to speak english froma dictionary I gave him, used to say to me as we uncrated cases of spares, pumps, mbikes etc etc "why arent these invented/manufactured in Africa Maister Stu?" (they had a lovely polite way of life, I was maistre (blue collar boss), an engineer was doctor, etc etc.
Stu
PS
loved the minister and his bumboys!! the guardianistas missed that one!
you know fine well that the topic is somali piracy, and do I take that you are going to decline offering yourself up in exchange for the chandlers...hmm thought so..and theres also a word for people like that as well.
When are you off, then?
Quote:
you are wrong about piracy not carrying the death penalty, in fact it does!
I am all for providing assistance to Prisoners to stop re-offending, but the primary purpose of prison should be to keep criminals off the streets. Not retribution or even punishment.........respite for society.
It's certainly an important point of prison, and there are certainly people who need kept securely locked up for the benefit of the rest of us. However, I think I'd put reform just as high on my list of priorities. After all, it's an awful lot more expensive to stop a burglar burgling for thirty years by locking him up for thirty years than it is by locking him up for two years and having him out on the streets as a reformed ex-burglar for the next 28.
And as posted above, the death penalty is substituted by "imprisonment for life".
(5) In section 2 of the [1837 c. 88.] Piracy Act 1837 (punishment of piracy when murder is attempted), for the words “and being convicted thereof shall suffer death” there shall be substituted the words “and being convicted thereof shall be liable to imprisonment for life”.
It's certainly an important point of prison, and there are certainly people who need kept securely locked up for the benefit of the rest of us. However, I think I'd put reform just as high on my list of priorities. After all, it's an awful lot more expensive to stop a burglar burgling for thirty years by locking him up for thirty years than it is by locking him up for two years and having him out on the streets as a reformed ex-burglar for the next 28.
Orbister, can I ask where you live? It sounds like a lovely place, all pink and fluffy.....
Orbister, can I ask where you live? It sounds like a lovely place, all pink and fluffy.....
Currently around 80% of those released from HMP Barlinnie are back inside within a year. That means they have committed more crimes, which I think we would agree is a Bad Thing, OK?
In order to prevent them committing those crimes we have straight choice: either
(a) keep them in prison or
(b) change them in prison so that they don't commit more crimes on the outside
The former indubitably works (if we ignore the fact that a lot of Scotland's drug trade is run from inside prisons) but is extremely expensive and (literally) a holding measure only. I've no problem with using prison for punishment, but unless it also reforms it's not doing all it could.
A typical prisoner in for burglary is illiterate, unskilled and on drugs. Sending him out illiterate, unskilled, desperate for drugs and scared of going back to prison is never going to work as well as sending him out able to read and write, employable and clean.
I'm an almost complete pragmatist here. As long as what we do meets basic standards of human decency, I am in favour of anything which reduces crime. Don't we agree there too?
It's certainly an important point of prison, and there are certainly people who need kept securely locked up for the benefit of the rest of us. However, I think I'd put reform just as high on my list of priorities. After all, it's an awful lot more expensive to stop a burglar burgling for thirty years by locking him up for thirty years than it is by locking him up for two years and having him out on the streets as a reformed ex-burglar for the next 28.
Yes. And 2 years for a first burgalry offence is probably fair enuf (ignoring the fact that for only 1 in 100 will it actually be there first offence). But for a repeat offender it is 5 years. 3rd time 7 years. locking a burglar up for 30 years may be too expensive, but IMO need to at least take him out of circulation during the prime time of his career. Rehab during that time is a bonus and for that the more time inside the better Any effect from an example to others is similarly simply a bonus.
I would favour a fixed tariff, 1st offence is a minimum of 50% the possible sentence, 2nd offence 2/3rds and 3rd the maximum.......just so folks can easily understand the potential penalties (for those who care).
Initially (first 10 years ) I think this approach would be a lot more expensive, but a tipping point would be reached and savings could then be made from a virtuous cicrle being created, less active criminals being quickly recycled = less crime = more prevention / detection = less crime.
Of course could get this approach for no extra cost if we medicalised the drug problem..........
But I doubt anything sensible will ever be done on crime or drugs - too much money and vested interests in keeping these industries going strong. and that's just from the law enforcement side!
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Posted by downthecreek:
You are a prolific producer of offensive and gratuitous drivel
Around noon local time, 9 November 2009 the BW Lion, a Hong Kong flagged, 160,000 tons and 1,083-ft Crude Oil Tanker was attacked by pirates in two fast attack skiffs in the Indian Ocean, 400 nautical miles North East of the Seychelles and 1000 nautical miles East of Mogadishu, the capital of Somalia. This was the longest range of a pirate attack off the Somali coast ever.
Automatic weapons and Rocket Propelled Grenades were fired. With increasing speed and evasive maneuvers the master managed to evade the attack. No casualties were reported.
On indication of the attack an EU NAVFOR Luxemburg Maritime Patrol Aircraft, operating from the Seychelles was tasked to localize these pirates and to investigate possible further pirate activity in the vicinity of the attack position. The EU NAVFOR French warship FS Floreal was the closest available warship.
FS Floreal and the Maritime Patrol Aircraft take part in the EU NAVFOR mission Operation ATALANTA. The main tasks of Operation ATALANTA are to escort merchant vessels carrying food of the ‘World Food Program’ (WFP), the protection of vulnerable ships in the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean and to deter and disrupt piracy.
Piracy and kidnapping do not, in civilised countries, carry the death penalty. And no, we can't make an exception if the pirates and kidnappers are black.
Errr.... I think my poor recollection of archaic British Law does actually still say something about "Treason and trespass on royal naval property still having a death penalty..." never repeelled because it was in a seperate Act.
If we said flying the red ensign made you naval property, then there you have it.
It is not quite correct to say that there have been no deaths; there have been killings where crew members have attempted to resist the pirates.
There are currently 165 merchant seamen being held by Somali pirates, plus the Chandlers.
It is possible to launch a small boat off the beach pretty well anywhere along the Somali coast. The "motherships" used for long range attacks are fishing boats (Yemeni, Thai, Korean, pretty well any flag) which have been captured by the pirates; the crews are retained on board and the "mothership" is released once a target vessel is captured. Unfortunately there are rather a large number of fishing vessels in the Indian Ocean at any given time.
This piracy was active in the immediate post-WW2 period.
In 1950 I was navigating officer of a frigate given the task of suppressing or inhibiting both piracy and slavery (which the somalis are also good at). Incidentally our crew contained 16 locally entered Somali seamen.
Of course the scale was less dramatic than now. It was mostly confined to 50 miles off-shore and the boats used were slower (but our own max speed was only 17 knots) but the problem was much the same.
In a wardroom conference it was agreed that we could do little as one solitary ship patrolling the coast between Cape Gardafui and the Kenyan border. The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy. (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length.
This solved the problem, but do remember that the Royal Navy at that time had considerable discretion. We were not controlled by a Minister and his bum-boys and only reported the results, not the methods used. At that time we had an effective navy.
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised.
Please also note that at that period, with much of the interior farming etc in the hands of white settlers, there was no famine or any other shortages. Those communities that remained peaceful enjoyed some small prosperity: their small-scale epidemics were sorted out. The suppresssion of slavery was popular, and there was a semblance of justice.
I say semblance; that is another story.
The Empire was by no means all bad.
Just a pedantic little point; Somalia was not a British colony or protectorate in 1950; it had been handed back to Italian administration in 1949. I was living in Mogadishu in the late Fifties so I am fairly confident about this. I do incidentally recall helping to take care of an RN rating who was landed to us for treatment following an injury; his ship was on anti-piracy patrol, but I don't recall her name.
Location: gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Posts: 102
Sorry, but Britain took over Italian Somaliland after the war (exact date not known, but it was before 1949). In 1951, there were riots in Mog when Britain wanted to hand the country back to the Italians and we had to land a party to restore order and authority to the Civil Power.
I do not know what happened after that as we were relieved by another ship and had the pleasure of going on a hydrographic cruise of Mauritius, Cocos, Chagos etc. Much more nicer.
By the end of the 19 th century the Somali homeland was partitioned into the five colonial territories referred to earlier: French Somaliland, British Somaliland, the British area known as the Northern Frontier District (NFD) indirectly ruled by Kenya, Italian Somaliland and Ethiopian-controlled parts of the Ogaden. During the late 19 th century, the Ethiopian king Menelik II fought with the competing European powers to secure the Ogaden (Somali-inhabited areas) and claim them as Ethiopian territories. These divisions crossed traditional clan boundaries and disrupted centuries old seasonal migrations. The British colonial government meanwhile encouraged the commercialisation of livestock production. It was a policy that affected the entire social, economic and political culture of the pastoralists; their livelihood, security of food supplies and their relationship with the environment.
From 1899-1920, a local sufi brotherhood leader, was able to launch a successful dervish resistance to Ethiopian and British imperial designs. The resistance ended with his death following a Royal Air Force bombardment. The years 1900-1920 served as a period for colonial consolidation. The British were eager to seize northern Somalia (the former kingdom of Adal) as it could serve as an important source of food produce for its strategically important naval base at Aden in Yemen. The French desired an outpost along the Red Sea to strengthen links with French Indo-China, while the Italians sought to claim territory in the colonial race and thus were able to secure the Banaadir coast. The 1930s Italy, then ruled by Mussolini, recruited more than 40 000 Somali to pursue its claims to Ethiopia, particularly the Ogaden region. The Ethiopian emperor Haile Selassie also recruited smaller numbers of Somali nomads. Hostilities between the two imperial powers continued after Italy took the Ogaden and had not come to an end at the time when Italy entered World War 2 in 1940.
That year Somali troops helped Italy take the British Somaliland Protectorate but seven months later, in March 1941, the allied army retook both Somalia and the Ogaden. For the period 1941-1949, Great Britain held all Somali areas except French Somaliland. This period of unity in a region that had originally been under the control of separate groups and then divided among different imperial rulers, helped create a pan Somali identity that would become stronger during the independence struggle. During this period, the British and Somalis also came to accept each other as quasi allies in light of Italian settlements and political organisation within the region. Thus, the British encouraged the Somalis in the southern parts to organise politically. This ushered in the establishment of the first political party in Somalia in 1943; the Somali Youth Club, renamed the Somali Youth League (SYL) in 1947. The SYL enjoyed support mainly from the Marjeerteen clan of the Daarood clan-family. In response to this, another political party sprung up in the south; the Hisbia Digil Mirifle (HDM) that enjoyed tacit support from the Italians against the SYL. The SYL enjoyed some measure of support in northern parts of British Somaliland, however the two main parties that emerged in this area were the Somali National League (SNL) which enjoyed Isaaq clan support and the United Somali Party (USP) which enjoyed Dir and Daarood clan support. With the end of World War 2 in 1945, southern Somalia was however still legally an Italian colony, and the future of Somalia fell to the Allied Council of Foreign Ministers.
In January 1948, the Council sent a Commission to Mogadishu to ascertain the desires of the Somalis themselves. The SYL assumed a pro-independence stance with other groups protesting in favour of Italian rule. The SYL presented a proposal to the Commission calling for Somalia to be reunited under a 10 year trusteeship by an international body as a precursor to independence. The HDM departed from its pro-Italian stance and made a similar proposal, but calling for a 30 year trusteeship period. A mix of groups also put in a proposal for a return to Italian rule. Within the Council, under pressure from the USA and USSR, and despite mass Somali protests, the British returned the Ogaden and parts of the hinterlands, such as the Haud region, to Ethiopia. The Commission presented a plan similar to the SYL proposal to the Council, however, the matter was never taken up as in-fighting amongst the Ministers prevented a resolution resulting in the matter being referred to the UN General Assembly for consideration. In 1949, the UN GA voted for southern Somalia to be placed under Italian trusteeship while north western Somalia remained a British protectorate. The UN established the Italian Trusteeship Administration, known by its Italian acronym AFIS (Admministrazione Fiduciaria Italiana della Somalia), to prepare the territory for independence. A UN Advisory Council was to observe AFIS and report to the UN Trusteeship Council situated at UN headquarters.
The separate colonial policies and development objectives of the imperial powers would have a profound effect on the development of the Somali post-independence political culture and precipitate integration problems. While British Somaliland stagnated, the Italians, under the auspices of AFIS, made positive progress in terms of empowering the Somalis to politically prepare themselves for independence. While there was an initial distrust between AFIS and the SYL, positive political empowerment via Somali-led initiatives granted AFIS legitimacy in the eyes of most Somalis. In 1950, AFIS established the Territorial Council, which was to act as a nascent legislative body for Somalia. The Territorial Council consisted of 35 members, dominated by the SYL and HDM. The Council gained experience in procedural and legislative matters as it participated in debates of proposed AFIS legislation for the territory. AFIS also set-up Municipal and Rural Councils to facilitate local participation in political affairs. Moreover, in addition to these political developments, AFIS also implemented a 7 year development plan in 1954, based on USAID and UNDP blueprints. These plans had positive pay-offs, education enrolment doubled and exports trebled in the period 1954-1960. However, educational progress was hampered by use of numerous languages (Arabic, English, Italian), and despite increased exports, balance of payments deficits persisted. In 1956, elections were held for the first time in Italian Somaliland to elect a new 70 seat Legislative Assembly that was to replace the Territorial Council. The SYL won the majority, claiming 43 of the 70 seats. The SYL leader of the assembly, Mr. Abdulaahi Iise was the first Prime Minister of a local government that would prepare for independence. Iise composed a government of 5 ministerial level posts that was responsible for domestic affairs. AFIS continued controlling areas of foreign policy, defense, external finance and also retained a veto on all affairs brought before the Legislative Assembly until 1958. The Iise government, whose term was from 1956-1960, was perhaps one of the most stable periods in Somali politics. However, it was a period fraught with intra-SYL squabbles as opposed to SYL/HDM squabbles across party lines. A pivotal debate in the Legislative Assembly of Italian Somaliland centred on the question of a unitary versus federal state. The HDM pushed for federalism fearing domination by the SYL, who won the debate in favour of a unitary state based on its numerical strength in the Assembly. Mr. Aadan Abdillah Usmaan, who served as the speaker of parliament under the Iise government, was to be the first President of an independent Somalia.
These empowering political developments led the Somalis in British Somaliland to protest in 1956 calling for a local representative government to be established and to prepare for integration of the two Somalilands. While the Italians had taken progressive steps in southern Somaliland, the British made little effort to administratively and politically prepare northern Somaliland for independence and unification. Thus, in 1957 a Legislative Council was created in British Somaliland. It consisted of 6 members appointed by the British governor to represent the major clan-families in the region. It was further expanded in 1958.
In 1958, elections were held in Italian Somaliland for its respective legislative body that would merge with the British Somaliland Assembly into a new National Assembly following independence. The independence National Assembly was to consist of 123 seats: 90 for Italian Somaliland and 33 for British Somaliland. In the Italian Somaliland elections, the HDM and other political parties boycotted the elections based on accusations that the SYL had tampered with the electoral process. This resulted in the SYL winning 81 of the 90 seats allocated to Italian Somaliland. The SYL had expanded its base, and gave representation to most of the major clan-families in Italian Somaliland. Iise continued as leader in Italian Somaliland. In early 1960, elections were held in British Somaliland for its respective body that would merge to form the National Assembly. The SNL and USP won all but one of the 33 seats allocated to the protectorate. Mohammad Ibrahim Egal (SNL) was chosen as the Prime Minister in British Somaliland to lead a four-man government in the north just prior to independence.
Somalia became independent from Italian and British colonial rule in 1960.
I wan't around in '51, but this is an interesting historical digression! I am fairly sure that Italy occupied British Somaliland in 1940 but Britain reoccupied it and took over the rest of Italian Somaliland in 1941-ish. Italian Somaliland was given to Italy to administer under a UN Mandate in '49.
I fancy your "support of the civil power" may have been more because a Somali political party wanted Independence Now (standard form in fifties Africa) than because the Somalis liked the British better than the Italians. I don't think they drew much of a distinction between us.
Since '91, of course, the former British Somaliland has been operating as an independent and fairly well governed country under the name of Somaliland, but no nation has recognised it.
I must agree that even at its zenith of peace and prosperity, immediately before independence, Mogadishu was a bit of a dump.
The water that came out of the taps was brackish, and to get drinking water one had to drive into the town centre taking a couple of suitable containers. There was electric power but there was a short spell of darkness each evening as the power station switched from the smaller to the larger diesel engine.
Errr.... I think my poor recollection of archaic British Law does actually still say something about "Treason and trespass on royal naval property still having a death penalty..." never repeelled because it was in a seperate Act.
If we said flying the red ensign made you naval property, then there you have it.
Sorry, but it's poor recollection. The maximum sentence was changed to life imprisonment in 1998. Since then we have become bound by international treaty obligations neither to have nor to introduce the death penalty for any crimes at all, ever.
I think that the economics of shipping probably have quite a significant effect here, where ship owners are always looking for ways to cut costs, especially manning costs.
I visited a container ship in the harbour here today - 17,000 tonnes deadweight, and only 16 crew, including the 4 engine room staff (2 engineers and 2 oilers).
The Emma Maersk is one of the largest container ships in the world (she can carry 12,000 20' TEU containers), and has (I think) only a few more crew than the one I saw today.
Emma would have size and speed on her side as a deterrent to pirates - have you seen the freeboard on these huge ships?
The 'little' (relatively) ship I visited has 'low' freeboard (compared to Emma) - it would be relatively easy for a gang of pirates to sling their grappling hooks over the rails on a dark night - especially as they know that the odds of anybody seeing them are very low, as the ship manning levels are often barely above the minimum required by the Safe Manning Document.
And as for a little (relatively) loaded tanker, proceeding at a relatively sedate speed - they could almost step on board from a 'fishing boat'. Easy pickings. Especially as they know that the cargo is worth millions of US$.
By way of contrast, a typical general cargo ship of 10,000 tonnes deadweight in the 50's might have had well over 60 crew on board - my Dad was on one of these vessels going through the South China Seas (or maybe Malacca Straits) and he told me about how they had fire teams on constant watch on deck with fire hoses ready when passing through pirate infested waters. Modern day ships just do not have the man power to do this, and it would be unreasonable to expect the operating crew to do this in addition to their normal jobs on the ship.
Maybe the vessels' P & I Clubs will now start insisting on additional armed guards (working shifts around the clock?) being carried on board ships running the gauntlet of the Somali pirates - but this then leads to further possible complications re lifeboat and liferaft capacity being exceeded..... 3 men per shift would not be unreasonable (port, starboard and stern?), and if they do 4 hours on, 8 off then that is another 9 crew members on the list. They would still need 6 extra crew if they just did 'only' 6 hours on and 6 off at night.
Quite right, except for the technical detail that piracy is covered by hull underwriters under ITC Hulls and not by the P&I Club (although, interestingly, it is covered by the War Clubs, if you get your war cover from a War Club)
The extension of activity further out into the Indian Ocean has "changed the game" a bit; I think this is in part because of the sucess of EUNAVFOR in stopping attacks in the Aden-Socotra corridor, but one has to start assuming that any ship transiting the Indian Ocean would need such guards, if they are the solution.
Somali pirates
Lets see. Arrange a 'pirate siezure' and subsequent payoff by government or insurers to pirates. Claim insurance on boat ( which was stripped of anything useful beforehand of course ), get into after dinner speaking or piracy consulting.
Fisher/pirates
Money laundering?
) I think this approach would be a lot more expensive, but a tipping point would be reached and savings could then be made from a virtuous cicrle being created, less active criminals being quickly recycled = less crime = more prevention / detection = less crime.
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